Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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No salvation apart from Jesus
It doesn't mean no salvation apart of catholic do you agree?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
It doesn't mean no salvation apart of catholic do you agree?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
Because the head can't apart from the body, so you believe :
No salvation apart from Jesus mean no salvation apart from Catholic Church?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
No salvation apart from Jesus mean no salvation apart from Catholic Church?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
What is your definition of Muslim? So you believe ccc 841 mean Muslim can not be save without accepting Jesus?
What is your definition of Muslim?
In my country if Muslim accepting Jesus, they will disown by their family and consider not Muslim anymore.
Muslim accepting Jesus is Christian not Muslim anymore
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yes, I would consider Muslims a group.
I don't think I've heard someone say that a hospital belongs to Catholics. The usual phrase in English is "Catholic hospital", which I think means a hospital associated in some significant way with Catholics.
In the USA, there are Catholic hospitals, Adventist hospitals, even Jewish hospitals, which I didn't know about until I met my wife. And then there's other kinds of religious and non-religious hospitals, like hospitals associated with a university.
Catholic hospitals won't do abortions. Adventist hospitals won't serve bacon.
Jewish hospitals do things to help the Jewish patients keep the law of Moses and Jewish customs.
I don't think I've heard someone say that a hospital belongs to Catholics. The usual phrase in English is "Catholic hospital", which I think means a hospital associated in some significant way with Catholics.
In the USA, there are Catholic hospitals, Adventist hospitals, even Jewish hospitals, which I didn't know about until I met my wife. And then there's other kinds of religious and non-religious hospitals, like hospitals associated with a university.
Catholic hospitals won't do abortions. Adventist hospitals won't serve bacon.
Jewish hospitals do things to help the Jewish patients keep the law of Moses and Jewish customs.
Right, and Catholics view salvation as a process. So, when you read a Catholic document, you may wish to remember that the writers are thinking of salvation as a process.
(There are some Bible verses which seem to indicate salvation is a process.)
I think what they are saying is that some Muslims have the possibility of salvation.
When I first read the lumen gentium after you first told me about it, I did not sense any dishonesty. If you sense dishonesty, it might be because of difficulties with the English or lack of exposure to Catholic theology.
(There are some Bible verses which seem to indicate salvation is a process.)
I think what they are saying is that some Muslims have the possibility of salvation.
When I first read the lumen gentium after you first told me about it, I did not sense any dishonesty. If you sense dishonesty, it might be because of difficulties with the English or lack of exposure to Catholic theology.
No, I don't agree that there is no salvation apart from Catholic.
I believe that Catholics are, in general, part of the body of Christ because they believe the main points about Jesus, just like I do.
If anyone is saved (or in the process of salvation, whichever), it is not apart from the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.
I think this would even include a person who is alone on an island who becomes saved. They too are baptized in one Spirit into the same body that we are in.
In addition, I'm sure you've read this verse
1 Timothy 2: 1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.
Since Christians are praying for all people, if someone is saved, even someone who has never heard the name of Jesus, the body of Christ has been involved in that!
I believe that Catholics are, in general, part of the body of Christ because they believe the main points about Jesus, just like I do.
If anyone is saved (or in the process of salvation, whichever), it is not apart from the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12: 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.
I think this would even include a person who is alone on an island who becomes saved. They too are baptized in one Spirit into the same body that we are in.
In addition, I'm sure you've read this verse
1 Timothy 2: 1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.
Since Christians are praying for all people, if someone is saved, even someone who has never heard the name of Jesus, the body of Christ has been involved in that!
I believe there is no salvation apart from the church, the body of Christ. Catholics are going to call that the Catholic Church, I will just call that the church, but I don't see that as something worth dividing over.
Catholics will also say that their hierarchy, the system of priests and bishops, is the only one ordained by God. I don't know about that, but again I don't see it as something worth dividing over.
Catholics will also say that their hierarchy, the system of priests and bishops, is the only one ordained by God. I don't know about that, but again I don't see it as something worth dividing over.
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Is that mean you not agree with this catholic belief?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
What is a Muslim? I think the definition from Wikipedia works well:
"Muslims are people who follow or practice Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. The majority of Muslims also follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts."
I think the Catholic position is that a Muslim has the possibility of being saved without "accepting Jesus" in the Protestant sense. I think a big piece of the possibility would be whether or not the Muslim in question has heard a reasonable account of Jesus.
But no one is saved apart from Jesus.
It makes sense that a person who was a Muslim and now says that Jesus is God would be expelled from the Muslim community and their family. I think Jesus even prophesied about that kind of situation.
"Muslims are people who follow or practice Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. Muslims consider the Quran, their holy book, to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet and messenger Muhammad. The majority of Muslims also follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts."
I think the Catholic position is that a Muslim has the possibility of being saved without "accepting Jesus" in the Protestant sense. I think a big piece of the possibility would be whether or not the Muslim in question has heard a reasonable account of Jesus.
But no one is saved apart from Jesus.
It makes sense that a person who was a Muslim and now says that Jesus is God would be expelled from the Muslim community and their family. I think Jesus even prophesied about that kind of situation.
So the word Muslim in this paragraph mean a group
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
That's mean catholic belief Muslim save
And Muslim do not believe Jesus is a God
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
That's mean catholic belief Muslim save
And Muslim do not believe Jesus is a God
It doesn't matter if salvation process or not, but do you believe if one hear about catholic but chose Protestant, not save?
So when Catholic want to say Muslim have possibility of salvation, she say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
Why not say like what is mean?
My car is red
That mean my car is white
Mean I am liar.
If one say Muslim in the plan of salvation than say it mean there is possibility of salvation it mean lie
So when Catholic want to say Muslim have possibility of salvation, she say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
Why not say like what is mean?
My car is red
That mean my car is white
Mean I am liar.
If one say Muslim in the plan of salvation than say it mean there is possibility of salvation it mean lie
So you not agree only member of RCC save
But you agree with this ccc 816?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
But you agree with this ccc 816?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
So you not agree with ccc 816?
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
This definition is not biblical. If Muslim abrahamic religion, it must believe in the Bible, believe Jesus God.
What do you mean by in the Protestant sense?
Let build deductive logic
No one save apart from Jesus (I copy your statement)
Muslim save
Therefore Muslim believe Jesus is God
And the reality is muslim not believe Jesus is God, so ccc841 is lie
What do you mean by in the Protestant sense?
Let build deductive logic
No one save apart from Jesus (I copy your statement)
Muslim save
Therefore Muslim believe Jesus is God
And the reality is muslim not believe Jesus is God, so ccc841 is lie
Well, those Muslims that have never heard a reasonable account of the Gospel or description of Jesus would be in the category of those who have never heard, imo.
I think some Muslims have heard, some have not. I think the Quran talks about Jesus a little bit, and Muslims in general say that Jesus was a prophet.
But consider the case of a woman in a strict Muslim society. She isn't allowed to leave the house without a male relative with her, she is never taught to read, and the only thing she hears about Jesus is what they say in the mosque. And in the mosque, they say don't trust Christians or the Bible. Has she really heard? I would say no. Of course God is the judge.
I'm pretty sure they don't believe Jesus is God.
I put the definition from Wikipedia in a post that I wrote yesterday evening. By the time you read this post, you will probably have read that post already!
I think some Muslims have heard, some have not. I think the Quran talks about Jesus a little bit, and Muslims in general say that Jesus was a prophet.
But consider the case of a woman in a strict Muslim society. She isn't allowed to leave the house without a male relative with her, she is never taught to read, and the only thing she hears about Jesus is what they say in the mosque. And in the mosque, they say don't trust Christians or the Bible. Has she really heard? I would say no. Of course God is the judge.
I'm pretty sure they don't believe Jesus is God.
I put the definition from Wikipedia in a post that I wrote yesterday evening. By the time you read this post, you will probably have read that post already!