Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Is that mean you not agree with this catholic belief?


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
No, I agree with what the Catholics are saying here

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator..."

It doesn't mean

"Everyone who acknowledges the Creator is saved."
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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So the word Muslim in this paragraph mean a group

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

That's mean catholic belief Muslim save
I think maybe that's where you're not understanding what they are saying. I never for a moment thought they were saying that all Muslims are saved.

I'm not sure how this works in Indonesian, but in English, we might say, "Walmart is where America shops."

That doesn't mean that every American shops at Walmart.

Or, "Included in the people who shop at Walmart are Latinos."

It doesn't mean that every Latino shops at Walmart.


And Muslim do not believe Jesus is a God.
True! And when a Muslim does believe that Jesus is God, they're no longer a Muslim!
 

Dan_473

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It doesn't matter if salvation process or not,
Actually, I think it matters a great deal in the logic of the discussion we are having.

but do you believe if one hear about catholic but chose Protestant, not save?
No, I think a person in that situation could choose to be Protestant and be saved. I think some Catholics would say that if you fully understand the Catholic Church, and refuse to participate and all of its sacraments, you cannot be saved. The logic is that Jesus set up the Catholic Church, so if you reject the Catholic Church, you reject Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you cannot be saved.

So when Catholic want to say Muslim have possibility of salvation, she say Muslim in the plan of salvation?
I don't think that's quite what they said.

I believe the quote is

"The plan of salvation also includes..."

Why not say like what is mean?
My brother Jackson, your English is good. But do you really believe it is good enough for you to judge the grammar and syntax of the people who wrote the lumen gentium?

My car is red

That mean my car is white

Mean I am liar.
Is your car red all over? Is it both red and white?

Let's take a look at these sentences

Latinos shop at Walmart.

A few Latinos shop at Walmart.

Some Latinos shop at Walmart.

Most Latinos shop at Walmart.

All Latinos shop at Walmart.


If one say Muslim in the plan of salvation than say it mean there is possibility of salvation it mean lie.
Hopefully we can clear this up and come to a good understanding!
 

Jackson123

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Well, those Muslims that have never heard a reasonable account of the Gospel or description of Jesus would be in the category of those who have never heard, imo.
Did ccc841 say Muslim that never hear about Jesus ?

Don't you read the reason is lie,

Profess the faith of abraham, lie no 1

Together with us adore the one and mercifull god, lie number 2



27
I think some Muslims have heard, some have not. I think the Quran talks about Jesus a little bit, and Muslims in general say that Jesus was a prophet.
Good. Why you keep saying ccc841 mean for those who never hear gospel?

I'm pretty sure they don't believe Jesus is God

So I'm pretty sure you know ccc 841 oppose the Bible.

Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus

I am not say for some that never hear gospel
 

Jackson123

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No, I agree with what the Catholics are saying here

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator..."

It doesn't mean

"Everyone who acknowledges the Creator is saved."
The statement is not stop there, read the whole paragraph

Seem to me you agree that Muslim is in the plan of salvation because profess abraham faith ,,,,,etc don't you?

If that is what you belief, nothing I can do, but to me it's not biblical
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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So you not agree only member of RCC save

But you agree with this ccc 816?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.".
When a person is saved, they become a member of the church. Logically then, only members of the church are saved. There is only one Church.

Whether that one Church is led by that system of priests and bishops we often call "Catholic", I don't know. But I don't think that's something worth dividing over.
 

Dan_473

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So you not agree only member of RCC save
As I understand it, Catholics don't have membership the way it's often done in Protestant churches.

Everyone who is baptized is a member of the church, the body of Christ. I believe that's the Catholic view.

Catholics also believe that baptism is the first sacrament that a person can partake of. Protestant baptisms count for that. If a person wants to participate in other sacraments administered by the priests and bishops, then the next step is to talk to a priest.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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So you not agree with ccc 816?

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."
I don't really agree or disagree. I figure if it's something we have to know, then God would tell us for sure.

There's a church close to where I live that teaches that a person must be baptized by full immersion in order to be saved. This is a common belief in Restoration Movement churches in this area (they often have a name like
Church of Christ
Or
Christian Church).

My wife grew up in that church. I have many wonderful Christian brothers and sisters there! I think they are probably wrong about the requirement of baptism by full immersion. But I don't think it's worth dividing over.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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This definition is not biblical. If Muslim abrahamic religion, it must believe in the Bible, believe Jesus God.
Since the word Muslim does not occur in the Bible, I don't think a person will find a biblical definition of Muslim.

"Abrahamic religion" doesn't mean that the people believe everything that the Bible says Abraham believed.

"The Abrahamic religions, also referred to collectively as Abrahamism, are a group of Semitic-originated religious communities of faith that claim descent from the Judaism of the ancient Israelites and the worship of the God of Abraham. The Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, with the term deriving from the patriarch Abraham (a major biblical figure from the Old Testament, who is recognized by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others)."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


What do you mean by in the Protestant sense?
Many Protestants will say things like, "Accept Jesus into your heart." Sometimes this is abbreviated to "Accept Jesus". But neither of those phrases are found in the Bible. Sometimes a pastor will encourage people to raise their hand to accept Jesus, or come forward to accept Jesus, or pray the sinner's prayer to ask Jesus into their heart. But I don't think any of these things are talked about in the scriptures. And Catholics definitely have a different approach.


Let build deductive logic

No one save apart from Jesus (I copy your statement)

Muslim save
I think that second statement is where your logic broke down. Some Muslims are saved. Or maybe better, some Muslims are on the path to salvation.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Did ccc841 say Muslim that never hear about Jesus ?
It doesn't specify. But I understood it to refer to those who hadn't heard of the Gospel, based on previous exposure to Catholic teaching.

Do you remember the quote that I posted about the problem of using an isolated formulation?

The lumen gentium isn't intended to be read in isolation. And it is intended to be read in its entirety.

Similar situation with the CCC. I believe section 841 builds on the previous sections.

Similar situation with the Bible. Of course, you might not want to start reading the Bible from the beginning. But we definitely want to understand each part of the Bible in light of the whole Bible.


Don't you read the reason is lie,
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.


Profess the faith of abraham, lie no 1
Do you think they are saying that Muslims believe everything Abraham believed? I don't think they are saying that.


Together with us adore the one and mercifull god, lie number 2
We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.


Good. Why you keep saying ccc841 mean for those who never hear gospel?
Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.


So I'm pretty sure you know ccc 841 oppose the Bible.
I disagree that it opposes the Bible, though I'm sure it opposes some interpretations of the Bible.


Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.


I am not say for some that never hear gospel
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The statement is not stop there, read the whole paragraph

Seem to me you agree that Muslim is in the plan of salvation because profess abraham faith ,,,,,etc don't you?

If that is what you belief, nothing I can do, but to me it's not biblical
I just quoted the first part, because it looks to me like that's the part that you are misconstruing:

"The plan of salvation also includes…"


Myself, I probably wouldn't use a phrase like "The plan of salvation".

I think I would prefer something like "God is not far from any one of us".

What about Muslims? Well, I'd say that a person who agrees that there is a God who created heaven and earth has more truth than the atheist who says there is no God.


Let's consider the situation of the Greek poet quoted here

Acts 17: 28 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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I think maybe that's where you're not understanding what they are saying. I never for a moment thought they were saying that all Muslims are saved.

I'm not sure how this works in Indonesian, but in English, we might say, "Walmart is where America shops."

That doesn't mean that every American shops at Walmart.

Or, "Included in the people who shop at Walmart are Latinos."

It doesn't mean that every Latino shops at Walmart.




True! And when a Muslim does believe that Jesus is God, they're no longer a Muslim!
1. For walmart, it happen in Indonesia but if a country make a law, they use exact word

Christian save, is that mean all profess Christian save?

But real Christian save.

Muslim save, mean real Muslim save

You always say Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus

Do you think the word Muslim mean Muslim that never hear Jesus?

In Indonesia or America the word Muslim do not mean Muslim that never hear about jesus
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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No, I think a person in that situation could choose to be Protestant and be saved. I think some Catholics would say that if you fully understand the Catholic Church, and refuse to participate and all of its sacraments, you cannot be saved. The logic is that Jesus set up the Catholic Church, so if you reject the Catholic Church, you reject Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you cannot be saved
So you believe Protestant save, but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?

The plan of salvation also includes..."
Also include Muslim

Doesn't say Muslim that never hear about catholic.

If one want to say people that never hear Jesus may save apart from Jesus than no need to,mention Muslim,
It state on ccc 841

Did ccc 841 A say Muslim that never hear Jesus may save or

B. Muslim in the plan of salvation .....profess the faith of abraham...?
It doesn't specify. But I understood it to refer to those who hadn't heard of the Gospel, based on previous exposure to Catholic teaching.

Do you remember the quote that I posted about the problem of using an isolated formulation?

The lumen gentium isn't intended to be read in isolation. And it is intended to be read in its entirety.

Similar situation with the CCC. I believe section 841 builds on the previous sections.

Similar situation with the Bible. Of course, you might not want to start reading the Bible from the beginning. But we definitely want to understand each part of the Bible in light of the whole Bible.




Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.




Do you think they are saying that Muslims believe everything Abraham believed? I don't think they are saying that.




We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.




Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.




I disagree that it opposes the Bible, though I'm sure it opposes some interpretations of the Bible.




I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.




Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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It doesn't specify. But I understood it to refer to those who hadn't heard of the Gospel, based on previous exposure to Catholic teaching.

Do you remember the quote that I posted about the problem of using an isolated formulation?

The lumen gentium isn't intended to be read in isolation. And it is intended to be read in its entirety.

Similar situation with the CCC. I believe section 841 builds on the previous sections.

Similar situation with the Bible. Of course, you might not want to start reading the Bible from the beginning. But we definitely want to understand each part of the Bible in light of the whole Bible.




Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.




Do you think they are saying that Muslims believe everything Abraham believed? I don't think they are saying that.




We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.




Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.




I disagree that it opposes the Bible, though I'm sure it opposes some interpretations of the Bible.




I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.




Sorry, I can't make sense out of that phrase.
It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save

But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic

Do you believe Muslim profess the faith of abraham?

Do you believe Muslim adore Christian god?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I just quoted the first part, because it looks to me like that's the part that you are misconstruing:

"The plan of salvation also includes…"


Myself, I probably wouldn't use a phrase like "The plan of salvation".

I think I would prefer something like "God is not far from any one of us".

What about Muslims? Well, I'd say that a person who agrees that there is a God who created heaven and earth has more truth than the atheist who says there is no God.


Let's consider the situation of the Greek poet quoted here

Acts 17: 28 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'
Hindu also believe there is creator, is Hindu save?

Muslim god is not the creator.

This is what Muslim god say

So in 18:90, Allah SWT says:
"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

Christian god never say sun setting in the spring dark mud. If the sun come close to the earth, 10000 mile, the earth will burn

Muslim god think sun not bigger than a succer ball.
 

Jackson123

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Because that's what I think it means. Imo, hearing the Quran is not the same as hearing the gospel.
So you admit Quran not bible. Muslim worship god that is describe by Quran, not the same god by bible

Mean Muslim god is not Christian god
 

Jackson123

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Jackson
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus

Dan
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.

Jackson

Muslim in the plan of salvation

Muslim don't believe Jesus is god

Salvation don't need to believe Jesus as god

Of course it may not apply for people that never hear gospel
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
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We talked about this in the past in reference to Jews. The issue is that if I say that only people who agree with me 100% about every aspect of God are worshiping the same God that I do, then only a few people are worshipping the same God that I do.
I agree.

But only people that agree with bible 100% every aspect of God are worshiping God

Specially the part that say Jesus is God
 
Jackson
Muslim in the plan of salvation mean there is salvation apart from Jesus

Dan
I disagree, as I've tried to explain many times.

Jackson

Muslim in the plan of salvation

Muslim don't believe Jesus is god

Salvation don't need to believe Jesus as god

Of course it may not apply for people that never hear gospel
Muslims are the anti-Christ. How can they be saved?
Salvation is ONLY from Jesus alone.
 

Jackson123

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