Not By Works

[Judges1318]

No, ALL those who presently believe have the promises of God.

well, you are saying that.
you are saying some actual true believers will be revealed by the passage of time to not actually have the promises.

No, I'm saying that true present tense believers do actually possess the promises, but they will no longer possess the promises if they stop their present tense believing and it becomes past tense believing. Because only believers (present tense) possess the promises:

"47Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present tense) has eternal life." - John 6:47

"everyone who looks to the Son and believes (present tense) in him shall have eternal life" - John 6:40

"24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - John 5:24

The promises are addressed to present tense believers, not those who stop believing.
Only the person who presently believes possesses the promises.
These are the plain words of scripture.

 

[Judges1318]

Jesus knows His sheep who believe (present tense) and Jesus also knows from the beginning who they were who did not believe and also who would betray Him. (John 6:64-71)

And yet He does not deny the person who presently believes in Him knowing they won't always believe/trust in Him.
He did not deny the Galatians salvation even though He knew they would stop trusting in Him for justification.

 

[Judges1318]

Jesus wasn’t going to use the word believed, past tense, while still walking the Earth.

He doesn't today either.
Only those who are in a present state of believing are presently saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" - 1 Corinthians 15:2

'Saved' and 'hold fast' are in the present tense.
You have to be presently holding fast to the gospel message to be presently saved.
These are the plain words of scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

And yet He does not deny the person who presently believes in Him knowing they won't always believe/trust in Him.
He did not deny the Galatians salvation even though He knew they would stop trusting in Him for justification.

Where does Jesus say that present tense believers will not always believe in Him? That’s not what I’m reading in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24: 6:39,40,47; 11:25,26; 18:9)

The Galatians were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but nowhere does it state that seeking justification by the law was their final answer and they lost their salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

to say some of His sheep will reject Him in favor of a stranger is to categorically contradict what He says about them: all of them.

Sheep who stop believing are not sheep anymore that they should somehow only follow His voice.

When He has brought out all His own, He goes on ahead of them, and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice. (John 10:4-5)

 

[Judges1318]

Where does Jesus say that present tense believers will not always believe in Him? That’s not what I’m reading in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24: 6:39,40,47; 11:25,26; 18:9)

Why don't you listen to what I'm saying?
Jesus is addressing present tense believers.
The matter of those who stop believing is addressed elsewhere in the whole context of scripture.

The Galatians were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but nowhere does it state that seeking justification by the law was their final answer and they lost their salvation.

If you mean God had not turned them over to the loss of justification in Christ yet, yes, that is true. But Paul made it crystal clear, no interpretation needed, that they make Christ of no value to themselves in justification by going back to the law for justification, which they did in fact do. The letter says so. No interpretations needed.

 

[Judges1318]

The law, holding up, abide, etc. What would Jesus say, especially this weekend, to those who do not take His death, burial and RESURRECTION as the completed work? All we have to do is to BELIEVE, ACCEPT, for eternal salvation.

Keep that 'believing' and 'accepting' in the present tense and you will remain presently saved and possess the life that is eternal.
Such a simple gospel.

 

[Lightskin]

He doesn't today either.
Only those who are in a present state of believing are presently saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" - 1 Corinthians 15:2

'Saved' and 'hold fast' are in the present tense.
You have to be presently holding fast to the gospel message to be presently saved.
These are the plain words of scripture.

I understand where you’re coming from; it makes sense that your hands must be extended in order to receive a gift, and if you walk away from your gift you forfeit it.

I used to think that way however now I understand the following:

1. God’s gift of salvation is irrevocable.
2. God won’t lose any who belong to Him.
3. God‘s ways are not our ways.

 

[mailmandan]

Why don't you listen to what I'm saying?
Jesus is addressing present tense believers.
The matter of those who stop believing is addressed elsewhere in the whole context of scripture.

If you mean God had not turned them over to the loss of justification in Christ yet, yes, that is true. But Paul made it crystal clear, no interpretation needed, that they make Christ of no value to themselves in justification by going back to the law for justification, which they did in fact do. The letter says so. No interpretations needed.

I’ve been listening to what you are saying for quite a while now. Nowhere does the Bible say that genuine believers “stopped believing” and “lost their salvation.” Temporarily getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that going back to the law for justification was their final answer. Paul has confidence in these Galatians and I do too and I also have confidence in God’s preservation.

 

[Judges1318]

I will go with the people who have studied Koine Greek, so really I am not on my own but you are.

I provided resources to prove to you that you had an incorrect definition of the Greek Perfect tense.
If you want to ignore them, that's on you, not me.
I did my part.
You're on your own now.
Believe what you want.

One minute it is too much sin, next minute the issue is stop believing, then it is no fruit... then it is not fulfilling the law.

You are so desperate to prove NOSAS................. but your desperation and inconsistency speaks volumes.

You seem to lack basic reading and comprehension skills.
I know that no amount of consistency or eloquence or reason is going to break through that kind of barrier.
That's why I had you on ignore a while back.
No offense, but it's impossible to communicate with a person like you.
You don't even seem to be able to understand the argument, let alone agree with it.

 

[Judges1318]

I’ve been listening to what you are saying for quite a while now. Nowhere does the Bible say that genuine believers “stopped believing” and “lost their salvation.” Temporarily getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that going back to the law for justification was their final answer. Paul has confidence in these Galatians and I do too and I also have confidence in God’s preservation.

"11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." - Galatians 4:11

This shows you can not take Paul's 'go get em, tiger' admonition as him absolutely believing without a doubt that they would believe again. You can't fear that you've wasted your efforts on them at the same time you are sure they will definitely come back to faith in Christ. You're misinterpreting the intent of his confidence in them.

 

[posthuman]

No, I'm saying that true present tense believers do actually possess the promises, but they will no longer possess the promises if they stop their present tense believing and it becomes past tense believing. Because only believers (present tense) possess the promises:

"47Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present tense) has eternal life." - John 6:47

"everyone who looks to the Son and believes (present tense) in him shall have eternal life" - John 6:40

"24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - John 5:24

The promises are addressed to present tense believers, not those who stop believing.
Only the person who presently believes possesses the promises.
These are the plain words of scripture.

He says His sheep will never follow a stranger.
you say some of His sheep may follow a stranger.

He says He will not lose one.
you say He may lose some.

you are saying some believers will/may not truly have the promises, because you say some will/may cease to believe.
Jesus doesn't seem to think this way. God seems to consider those who have a pretense of belief and later drop it, to not be believers at all. and so, a falling away, so those who have crept in may be revealed as never having been one of us.

tares that looked like wheat when they were young are tares, and have never been wheat.
goats that seemed to be sheep have always been goats. time reveals this.

see, you're injecting a temporal nature into something eternal. that's not appropriate math; instead, what is eternal is what remains even though all time passes. what does not remain was never eternal to begin with, no matter how fancy of an illusion it had for some space of time.

if He gives eternal life that passes away for any reason, the life He gave was not eternal but temporary, and what He gave was a deception; an illusion of life. Jesus-God does not deceive. He is faithful to complete the work He began, and He is faithful to find every single sheep of His that wanders, and to carry it home on His shoulder, rejoicing! the life He gives is such that even tho we may die, we will live. use His definition of death: use His definition of life.

 

[mailmandan]

"11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." - Galatians 4:11

This shows you can not take Paul's 'go get em, tiger' admonition as him absolutely believing without a doubt that they would believe again. You can't fear that you've wasted your efforts on them at the same time you are sure they will definitely come back to faith in Christ. You're misinterpreting the intent of his confidence in them.

Galatians 5:10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Paul sounds confident to me.

In regards to Paul wasting his efforts in Galatians 4, keep in mind that it’s not hard to find make believers mixed in with genuine believers. Genuine believers ultimately prevail.

 

[EleventhHour]

You don't even seem to be able to understand the argument, let alone agree with it.

This portion is absolutely correct.

Do not understand, nor do I grasp a faulty, unscriptural argument.

Neither do I agree that salvation must be something I must maintain, nor will I ever.

Scripture is clear.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

I stand on the promises of God..... you stand on yourself.

 

[EleventhHour]

He doesn't today either.
Only those who are in a present state of believing are presently saved:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" - 1 Corinthians 15:2

'Saved' and 'hold fast' are in the present tense.
You have to be presently holding fast to the gospel message to be presently saved.
These are the plain words of scripture.

We are KEPT saved by WHO saved Us.

We are saved by JESUS, and we are Kept saved by Jesus.

Philippians 1:6
Hebrews 12:2

 

[Rosemaryx]

Psalm 121:7-8
7 The Lord shall preserve you from all evil;
He shall preserve your soul.
8 The Lord shall preserve your going out and your coming in
From this time forth, and even forevermore.

Thank You God that You Father are the KEEPER of our souls...
...xox...

 

[azamzimtoti]

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" - 1 Corinthians 15:2

You've cherry picked this, the context is that some among them were saying there is no resurrection:

(1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?)

Denying the resurrection is a profound doctrinal error, which is why Paul is exhorting them to follow the word that he preached to them.

Somewhat like you and the doctrine you profess.

 

[EleventhHour]

You've cherry picked this, the context is that some among them were saying there is no resurrection:

(1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?)

Denying the resurrection is a profound doctrinal error, which is why Paul is exhorting them to follow the word that he preached to them.

Somewhat like you and the doctrine you profess.

Explained to him so many times.

And then he states I have comprehension and reading problems.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Explained to him so many times.

And then he states I have comprehension and reading problems.

He's joined the Fruit Inspectors and Cherry Pickers Union, Local 666

 

[VCO]

How do you keep the Law when Paul stated those in Christ are dead and buried to the Law. The Law is bondage, this is what the werkers fail to understand.

(Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar)

(Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.)

(Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.)

I'm sure the werkers can spin the above to mean exactly the opposite of what it plainly says.


The werkers are effectively adulterers, claiming to be married to Christ while still lusting over Moses' Law.

(Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?)

(Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God)

WHO SAID I KEEP THE LAW.
THAT IS People WHO THINK KEEPING THE LAW Earns them the RIGHT to be Righteous in HIS SIGHT.

I SAID OBEDIENCE are the Deeds MOTIVATED BY AGAPE LOVE.

NO AGAPE LOVE, NO SALVATION.

HE PUTS IN ON MY HEART (IN MY HUMAN SPIRIT) what HE WANTS my Obedience, which is MOTIVATED as an act of my AGAPE LOVE, to be OBEDIENCE TOO.

I told you, IT IS NOT THAT WE OBEY THE LAW, . . . . . . . . it is WHY we are Obedient.

YOU have GONE OFF THE DEEP END TRYING TO RUN FROM BEING ACCUSED OF KEEPING THE LAW!

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
{A JOT or TITTLE, can be ONE PERIOD, or ONE CROSSING of a "T".}
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

John 14:21 (HCSB)
21 The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


They are NOT a BURDEN, only when the deeds are done out of PURE Agape Love.

That is, "I want to show my AGAPE LOVE for HIM, by LOVING HIM ENOUGH TO WANT TO OBEY HIM."

That is not PERFECTION, it is a LIFESTYLE Direction that MOTIVATES US.