Not By Works

[posthuman]

Excellent argument.
But the authority that the law no longer has over us is the authority to make us sin:

"8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting." - Romans 7:8

Sin within us is what gives the authority of the law to do that. But when we die to sin through Christ the law can no longer arouse sin in us through it's commandments.

this is just as true as that sin has no more power to condemn us: 'the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law'
death has no more sting and no more power -- if it still had *some sting* then death isn't defeated. if it still had *some power* then we're still under the law.

but death is swallowed up in victory! and it is for freedom we are free!
praise God from whom all blessings flow; praise Him all creatures here below!

 

[dcontroversal]

Cainologist

Noun

A person that claims Christ, yet adds works, self effort, a self maintained faith and or religious hoop jumping to the correct gospel message, and in so doing VOIDS the correct message of salvation.

A Cainologist, like the Pharisee of old, will encompass land and sea to make one disciple and is so doing make said disciple a two fold child of hell.

DO NOT let these deceivers like Judges drag you to the pit by their self maintained faux faith. Jesus begins, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in us and ALL OF HIS PROMISES are IRREVOCABLE...up to and INCLUDING HIS FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE!

 

[John146]

this is just as true as that sin has no more power to condemn us: 'the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law'
death has no more sting and no more power -- if it still had *some sting* then death isn't defeated. if it still had *some power* then we're still under the law.

but death is swallowed up in victory! and it is for freedom we are free!
praise God from whom all blessings flow; praise Him all creatures here below!

I would agree, but not yet for the believer. Death still has it’s power on us. Not until the rapture can we truly say this.

1 Corinthians 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Lightskin]

Cainologist

Noun

A person that claims Christ, yet adds works, self effort, a self maintained faith and or religious hoop jumping to the correct gospel message, and in so doing VOIDS the correct message of salvation.

A Cainologist, like the Pharisee of old, will encompass land and sea to make one disciple and is so doing make said disciple a two fold child of hell.

DO NOT let these deceivers like Judges drag you to the pit by their self maintained faux faith. Jesus begins, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in us and ALL OF HIS PROMISES are IRREVOCABLE...up to and INCLUDING HIS FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE!

Let’s say I’ve believed in Jesus Christ all my life, but looking back decide I have not done enough good works. I declare on this day that going forward I will do good works in order to please God and maintain my salvation.

People with this thought in mind fail to understand that every day is a gift from God, thus it is actually BY GRACE that we are even afforded the opportunity to do good works in the first place.

Hence our good works are nothing when it comes to our salvation because they inevitably rely solely on God’s grace of allowing us to be alive to perform said works.

 

[Judges1318]

Jesus Christ is the LORD -- He gave a law to a disobedient people He redeemed out of Egypt. a people who doubted and cursed Him from the very day He brought them out. a law, precept upon precept, so that they would fall backward, be broken and snared.
then He came and fulfilled all the terms of that law, took up all the iniquity of the people, and shouldering it, offered Himself as a Lamb making a new promise, gathering a people to Himself from every nation, making them new. at that time He said 'a new commandment' and 'a new covenant'

Not a new commandment, but an old commandment made new in revelation:

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. - 1 John 2:7-8

Leviticus 19:18 was always right under our noses in the pages of scripture, but we couldn't see it and live it until, through Christ, it was revealed to us, and in us, in this New Covenant.

 

[posthuman]

I would agree, but not yet for the believer. Death still has it’s power on us. Not until the rapture can we truly say this.

1 Corinthians 15
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

amen, thanks

there was a typo in my post -- i meant, sin has no more power, not death. but death has no sting -- because we know He is faithful to raise us

It is a faithful saying:
for if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him
(2 Timothy 2:11) ​

 

[Lightskin]

Let’s say I’ve believed in Jesus Christ all my life, but looking back decide I have not done enough good works. I declare on this day that going forward I will do good works in order to please God and maintain my salvation.

People with this thought in mind fail to understand that every day is a gift from God, thus it is actually BY GRACE that we are even afforded the opportunity to do good works in the first place.

Hence our good works are nothing when it comes to our salvation because they inevitably rely solely on God’s grace of allowing us to be alive to perform said works.

Let’s ay I’ve believed in Jesus Christ all my life and have always done good works. The same premise exists regarding God’s grace as mentioned above.

 

[posthuman]

Not a new commandment, but an old commandment made new in revelation:

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. - 1 John 2:7-8

good morning

this is an excellent point, it is what we has been said from the beginning, but Jesus still calls it "new"
and Jesus is not wrong

by saying 'new' He makes the old obsolete. He doesn't make the old wrong, or meaningless, but superseded. so as i said earlier, it isn't because of Leviticus 19 that we should love our neighbor, but because of John 13 -- notwithstanding that they say the same thing. i don't have to go through redacting the Torah in order to keep it - and i shouldn't expect anything less than the same righteousness being represented in both John and Leviticus, because Christ is Righteousness, and He doesn't change - the LORD is the Lord

when i went to university, i didn't have to attend high school classes or turn in work for those teachers anymore. not even a little bit. none of the things i learned in high school became moot -- i just wasn't beholden to them anymore. the things i learned there were still of every usefulness, and i retained every respect both for those teachers and the knowledge they imparted, but none of my old schoolmasters had any more authority over me. i am no longer in their ledgers. that is what it is like to graduate: you are not listed as enrolled any longer, not at all.

 

[Judges1318]

John 13 fulfills all of Leviticus.

What does it matter if the law is for the old covenant, not the New?

"13You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh a ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:13-14

"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

He's making a point about the law that the church says is meaningless and irrelevant and inapplicable in this New Covenant.
Apparently, it's not as meaningless and irrelevant and inapplicable as the church has taught us it is.

 

[Judges1318]

i don't have to go through redacting the Torah in order to keep it

Splitting the law up into categories isn't redaction.
It's looking at some commandments in the law and saying, "done, that has been fulfilled in Christ", and seeing others and saying, "I will fulfill that through the Spirit of God within me."

No redaction of law occurs.
We fulfill the law through our faith--all of it, not cast some of it down, breaking it, while keeping other parts.
It's just that some things still require our literal fulfillment while others don't because they have already been fulfilled through our faith in Christ's work on the cross.

 

[Judges1318]

see that sounds like, dead to the law, but only a little bit dead. well, maybe technically dead to the law

You're not getting it because you do not know what dead to the law means.
You have been taught the church's erroneous meaning of 'dead to the law'.

The church has taught us many wrong things.
Remember the issue about tithing?
Why does the church not see the plain words of the law that say you eat your own tithe two out of three years?
And yet we trust the church to be our guide instead of the scriptures and the Spirit of God in those scriptures.

 

[Judges1318]

it is what we has been said from the beginning, but Jesus still calls it "new"
and Jesus is not wrong

New in revelation, not a new commandment.

Same old commandment, but now made visible and manifest to the people of God and so seemingly 'new' in that sense.
It's 'new' because we didn't know it was there in all it's meaning and supremacy before.
Now we see it.
It's 'new' to us.

 

[Judges1318]

when i went to university, i didn't have to attend high school classes or turn in work for those teachers anymore. not even a little bit. none of the things i learned in high school became moot -- i just wasn't beholden to them anymore. the things i learned there were still of every usefulness, and i retained every respect both for those teachers and the knowledge they imparted, but none of my old schoolmasters had any more authority over me. i am no longer in their ledgers. that is what it is like to graduate: you are not listed as enrolled any longer, not at all.

Remember the book 'All I Really Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten'?

We all were taught the need to wash our hands way back then.
Now we understand the command.
The old command has suddenly become a new command.
New in revelation and it's application and meaning in our lives, not new as in we never had that command before.

 

[posthuman]

New in revelation, not a new commandment.

​

A new commandment I give unto you ​

(John 13:34)
​

do you imagine God misspoke?

 

[Judges1318]

Some people turn this promise from Jesus in John 10:27-28 into a mockery by interpreting this way - My sheep hear My voice, (some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them, (some of them I know and some of them I don't) and they follow Me. (some of them follow Me and some of them don't follow Me) And I give them eternal life, (some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (some of them will not be snatched out of My hand and some of them will be snatched out of My hand).

No, ALL those who presently believe have the promises of God.
The correct argument is some will not continue in their present believing and as a result will no longer have access to the promises.
But ALL those who presently believe have all of God's promises.
No one that I'm aware of is saying only some believers have access to the promises.

 

[Judges1318]

​

A new commandment I give unto you ​

(John 13:34)​

​

do you imagine God misspoke?

You cut it out of context!

Even a third grader can see it's not new in the sense it never existed before.
Context shows us it's the revelation of it's the meaning and importance and application of the old commandment that makes it 'new' to us.

"7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining." - 1 John 2:7-8

The light of revelation is shining now. The darkness is passing. We can see it now, even though it's been there all along. It's new that way.

You're illustrating this exact point. Maybe you've read this passage several times through you life. But now it's 'new' to you because the Spirit of God is revealing something in it you never saw before. It's new to you, yet you've had it all along.

 

[posthuman]

You cut it out of context!

Even a third grader can see it's not new in the sense it never existed before.

1 John 2 isn't the context of John 13.
even a kindergartener can see that He says a new commandment not a new revelation about an old one.

He says 'as I have loved you, love one another' --- that isn't in Leviticus 19.
God didn't die for the people when He took them out of Egypt. God did't incarnate Himself in the flesh when He brought them into Canaan. He did a new thing -- and the new covenant isn't just a new revelation about the old covenant any more than the one in Christ is merely an enlightenment given to the same old creation -- if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation.

old wineskins; new wineskins.
nobody puts new wine in old wineskins because they won't be able to contain it -- and the solution is not to poke holes in the old wineskins. the solution is get a new wineskin, and don't act all shocked because wow, it looks like a wineskin! of course it does!

love itself isn't new -- it is the character of the Ancient of Days. but He has revealed His love in the Son in a 'new' way - a new thing, behold! springs in the deserts! does that make water less wet? pff no, but we're drinking now from a fountain instead of that old canteen.

 

[mailmandan]

No, ALL those who presently believe have the promises of God.
The correct argument is some will not continue in their present believing and as a result will no longer have access to the promises.
But ALL those who presently believe have all of God's promises.
No one that I'm aware of is saying only some believers have access to the promises.

Jesus mentioned nothing about His sheep who will not continue in their present believing in John 10:27,28. I’ll stick with the plain words of Jesus.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus mentioned nothing about His sheep who will not continue in their present believing in John 10:27,28. I’ll stick with the plain words of Jesus.

amen

When He has brought out all His own, He goes on ahead of them, and His sheep follow Him because they know His voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice. ​

(John 10:4-5) ​

to say some of His sheep will reject Him in favor of a stranger is to categorically contradict what He says about them: all of them.
He calls such people 'goats' -- tells them He never knew them, and that they cannot believe believe because they are not His sheep.

wheat and tares grow together. that doesn't make tares erstwhile wheat.
this is the whole reason the angels - not men - are sent to separate them at harvest. inept people would uproot and preserve the wrong plants.

 

[posthuman]

No one that I'm aware of is saying only some believers have access to the promises.

well, you are saying that.
you are saying some actual true believers will be revealed by the passage of time to not actually have the promises.
to have only had the temporary illusion of life.
in contrast, Christ is saying that in the passage of time some will be revealed as never having been His own, never having had life - because the life He gives is eternal; it does not become death at some later moment.