The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[GaryA]

Oh good, another one. Rather than throw silly idioms about, learn the rules of debate, even the most basic. The onus is on the one that insists the post-tribulation rapture is scripture, not the pre.
The pretribulation rapture is proven with scripture throughout this thread. The post tribulation rapture was claimed to be in evidence when one posted the scripture of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, but that was not correct and the post tribulation rapture claim was not supported in either that chapter 4 nor in chapter 5. In fact, the pre-tribulation rapture was.



Realizing you're unaware at that point allow me to help you. You just provided a quote that applies to you both.
What comes next? Insults and pejoratives? If you and Lucy are not here to learn scripture, don't attempt to play games with it. There are Christians in this forum dedicated to Christ and we respect the Word, and His word.

I am well-aquainted with the rules of debate; however, you are missing something...

Realizing you are unaware of that which is most important - and most beneficial - about the context of this situation -- let me help you.

Real, actual, true born-again Christians - who are "dedicated to Christ" and "respect the Word" - are not inclined to turning every 'discussion' into a 'debate'; rather, they have a natural inborn love in their heart towards their brothers and sisters in Christ - which translates very easily and successfully into the desire and want and will to 'discuss' any given topic with their brothers and sisters in Christ rather than to 'debate' the topic with them.

They do not have the desire to make 'opponents' or 'enemies' of their brothers and sisters in Christ; but rather, wish to encourage them to always - with humility - seek the truth.

There is a proper place and time for debate; however, I do not believe that every thread on CC is it.

The name of this forum is Bible Discussion Forum -- not Bible Debate Forum.

Perhaps the threads initiated by the OP with the intent of it being for the purpose of debate should have "[DEBATE]" in the title or some such thing.

If no such designation is given, then I have every reason to determine and decide that the 'default' condition exists - it is a thread meant for 'discussion' and not 'debate'.

A debate (to have/hold a debate) is only valid when it is clearly declared and advertized as such before it commences.

Please note that the OP has that option - not everyone [else] who chooses to post in their thread.

If you are not the OP --- you DO NOT have the "right" to turn the thread into a circus by transforming the 'discussion' into a 'debate'.

No one has the "right" to declare "this discussion is now a debate" after it commences unless ALL parties involved are in agreement to change its status as such.

And, if you really believe that every thread on CC should operate according to Robert's Rules of Order (or any other rules of debate), then I suggest you are in need of some priority-setting in your life.

And, if you are incapable of having a discussion with other people without feeling like you have to force it into being a debate -- well, everyone should pray for you such that God will help you to overcome the evil that Satan has shackled you with.

I am not here to 'debate' - I would much rather 'discuss'.

 

[Whispered]

I am well-aquainted with the rules of debate; however, you are missing something...

Realizing you are unaware of that which is most important - and most beneficial - about the context of this situation -- let me help you.

Real, actual, true born-again Christians - who are "dedicated to Christ" and "respect the Word" - are not inclined to turning every 'discussion' into a 'debate'; rather, they have a natural inborn love in their heart towards their brothers and sisters in Christ - which translates very easily and successfully into the desire and want and will to 'discuss' any given topic with their brothers and sisters in Christ rather than to 'debate' the topic with them.

They do not have the desire to make 'opponents' or 'enemies' of their brothers and sisters in Christ; but rather, wish to encourage them to always - with humility - seek the truth.

There is a proper place and time for debate; however, I do not believe that every thread on CC is it.

The name of this forum is Bible Discussion Forum -- not Bible Debate Forum.

Perhaps the threads initiated by the OP with the intent of it being for the purpose of debate should have "[DEBATE]" in the title or some such thing.

If no such designation is given, then I have every reason to determine and decide that the 'default' condition exists - it is a thread meant for 'discussion' and not 'debate'.

A debate (to have/hold a debate) is only valid when it is clearly declared and advertized as such before it commences.

Please note that the OP has that option - not everyone [else] who chooses to post in their thread.

If you are not the OP --- you DO NOT have the "right" to turn the thread into a circus by transforming the 'discussion' into a 'debate'.

No one has the "right" to declare "this discussion is now a debate" after it commences unless ALL parties involved are in agreement to change its status as such.

And, if you really believe that every thread on CC should operate according to Robert's Rules of Order (or any other rules of debate), then I suggest you are in need of some priority-setting in your life.

And, if you are incapable of having a discussion with other people without feeling like you have to force it into being a debate -- well, everyone should pray for you such that God will help you to overcome the evil that Satan has shackled you with.

I am not here to 'debate' - I would much rather 'discuss'.

Debate is discussion.
Clearly you would not rather discuss when you think to insult a Christian with your acquaintance of Satan and shackles.
God does not hear the prayers of sinners, therefore, your attempt at insult fell on you and you alone.
Help yourself. Rather than do what you think you're about here, learn from the Bible discussions and see if God calls your name.

 

[GaryA]

Debate is discussion.

At best, debate may be considered a form of discussion; however, the reverse is not true.

Discussion need not always be debate.

 

[GaryA]

Rather than do what you think you're about here, learn from the Bible discussions and see if God calls your name.

What discussions??? Everything has to be a debate around here...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



SMH

 

[Absolutely]

So you believe the man of sin reveal before tribulation?
Where it say?

For sure rapture happen in the last trump.
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So you believe rapture before tribulation for only 144 thausand.

How about this rapture

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is happen in the last trumpet, is this another rapture?

Why the first rapture only 144 thausand.

It is the Jewish gathering not 1 thes 4.

But it confirms 1 thes 4 as pretrib. (The dead rise first...or pre living of those jews in rev 14)......"...but you saved the best for last"

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

After I read one more time this verse, I believe it is happen in thausand years kingdom
This verse doesn't prove that this 144 thausand saint rapture before trib. It only take a second to rapture

These saint . Read rev 20:4 they may not rapture at all. They back to life and reign with Jesus


Jesus or the Lamb reign from Sion

Look rev 20

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.


They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6

Thausand years kingdom is on earth and happen after tribulation

T

The setting is during the trib.
Vividly during.
Vividly

 

[Whispered]

What discussions??? Everything has to be a debate around here...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



SMH

Debate is discussion as pertains to this forum in particular. Bible Discussion Forum. Each person who has faith defends that with, usually, scripture. We all live what we believe is true to and for us. And that is why we see it become adversarial at times, but thankfully not everyone goes there. Because we're all teaching, defending, what we hold as true for our walk, and in every sense, prove ourselves right, and in many cases, others wrong. And indeed, some are. And very much so.

 

[Rondonmon]

What does that have to do with anything that was said?

Had me STUMPED as well until I backtracked.........................BELOW is the actual post ...............and the guy you were quoting {massorite} was speaking about Magaret MacDonald being the author of the "Rapture Theory".

*******massorite said:********* SO Massorite said this BELOW:
I never said the Letter from Margaret MacDonald was accurate because it is not, which is why the Pre-Trib doctrine is a false teaching.
Why not simply ignore all the propaganda and focus on what is in the Bible? Just one passage -- John 14:1-3 -- should suffice.

THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE: REVEALED BY CHRIST BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION

NO TRIBULATION BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD WHO WILL ASCEND BACK TO THE FATHER
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

GOD THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN WHERE THERE ARE MANY MANSIONS FOR THE SAINTS
2 In my Father's house are many mansions... [Note: not just little rooms]

WHAT IS STATED IS ABSOLUTE FACT
...if it were not so, I would have told you...

CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR HIS OWN IN THE NEW JERUSALEM
...I go to prepare a place for you... For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:10)

THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE: I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...(1 Thess 4:16)

THE SAINTS TO BE WITH CHRIST IN HEAVEN ETERNALLY
...that where I am, there ye may be also... and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:17)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So my reply was facetious, Paul is where the Rapture understanding came from, not Margret MacDonald who is indeed a WOMAN, tongue in cheek. Hence Paul was a man....not a Woman.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus paul and jn all placed the rapture pretrib

 

[Jackson123]

It is the Jewish gathering not 1 thes 4.

But it confirms 1 thes 4 as pretrib. (The dead rise first...or pre living of those jews in rev 14)......"...but you saved the best for last"

I don't understand what do you mean by Jew gathering.

Wich verse you talking about.

How do you know 144 thausand is a Jew and why you think it prove pretrib.

I may wrong, but non of a verse in rev 14 say about pretrib at all or say 144 thausand is only Jew.
How you relate 1 Thessalonians with pretrib please explain.

 

[Jackson123]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This verse not say rapture before tribulation.

Example

After that I am eating

After what?

Can be after tribulation.

These topic is not about whether rapture before or after trib. This topic Paul explai what happen to our brother and sister that die. Don't worry about them, they may die like Stephen that killed or in tribulation / persecuted by Jew or die in bed. It doesn't matter they going to rise and lithe with Jesus forever

Nothing in These verses say rapture before tribulation

Jesus say His second coming happen after tribulation not all the way around

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How people say Jesus teach rapture before tribulation?

 

[Jackson123]

Had me STUMPED as well until I backtracked.........................BELOW is the actual post ...............and the guy you were quoting {massorite} was speaking about Magaret MacDonald being the author of the "Rapture Theory".

*******massorite said:********* SO Massorite said this BELOW:
I never said the Letter from Margaret MacDonald was accurate because it is not, which is why the Pre-Trib doctrine is a false teaching.
Why not simply ignore all the propaganda and focus on what is in the Bible? Just one passage -- John 14:1-3 -- should suffice.

THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE: REVEALED BY CHRIST BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION

NO TRIBULATION BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD WHO WILL ASCEND BACK TO THE FATHER
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

GOD THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN WHERE THERE ARE MANY MANSIONS FOR THE SAINTS
2 In my Father's house are many mansions... [Note: not just little rooms]

WHAT IS STATED IS ABSOLUTE FACT
...if it were not so, I would have told you...

CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR HIS OWN IN THE NEW JERUSALEM
...I go to prepare a place for you... For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:10)

THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE: I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...(1 Thess 4:16)

THE SAINTS TO BE WITH CHRIST IN HEAVEN ETERNALLY
...that where I am, there ye may be also... and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:17)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So my reply was facetious, Paul is where the Rapture understanding came from, not Margret MacDonald who is indeed a WOMAN, tongue in cheek. Hence Paul was a man....not a Woman.

And this is what Paul say

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[Absolutely]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This verse not say rapture before tribulation.

Example

After that I am eating

After what?

Can be after tribulation.

These topic is not about whether rapture before or after trib. This topic Paul explai what happen to our brother and sister that die. Don't worry about them, they may die like Stephen that killed or in tribulation / persecuted by Jew or die in bed. It doesn't matter they going to rise and lithe with Jesus forever

Nothing in These verses say rapture before tribulation

Jesus say His second coming happen after tribulation not all the way around

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How people say Jesus teach rapture before tribulation?

Because there can not be a gathering until the dead rise first.
Pretrib fits
Postrib does not
How can 2 groups be gathered in rev 14(during the gt) before the dead resurrect as depicted in 1 thes 4?

 

[Absolutely]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This verse not say rapture before tribulation.

Example

After that I am eating

After what?

Can be after tribulation.

These topic is not about whether rapture before or after trib. This topic Paul explai what happen to our brother and sister that die. Don't worry about them, they may die like Stephen that killed or in tribulation / persecuted by Jew or die in bed. It doesn't matter they going to rise and lithe with Jesus forever

Nothing in These verses say rapture before tribulation

Jesus say His second coming happen after tribulation not all the way around

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How people say Jesus teach rapture before tribulation?

If you keep reading,Angels gather not Jesus,and they are gathered from heaven,not earth.

 

[Jackson123]

Because there can not be a gathering until the dead rise first.
Pretrib fits
Postrib does not
How can 2 groups be gathered in rev 14(during the gt) before the dead resurrect as depicted in 1 thes 4?

The dead ruse after trib and than the living next second

So postrib fit.

I don't understand why the dead rise first make impossible for post trib?

The Bible say the dead rise in the last trump and the living after the dead

John come at 7.00 AM
I come after john

Am I com before 7 AM

If I come after john than I must come after 7 AM
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Remember it happen in the last trumpet.
Please answer my question !
Is the last trumpet before tribulation

 

[Jackson123]

If you keep reading,Angels gather not Jesus,and they are gathered from heaven,not earth.

What verse you talking about?
1 Thessalonians 4 stop at verse 18 what do you mean by keep reading?

What verse say angel gathering?
Paul say we, is paul angel?

 

[Rondonmon]

And this is what Paul say

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Well, you can put in Rebellion for APOSTASY for the real word which meant DEPARTURE, that is the way people go down rabbit holes over time. The first 7 English translations had DEPARTURE[of the Church] thus the Thessalonians didn't have to fear the Day of the Lord and the Man of Son must also come BEFORE the DOTL, this Paul is telling them, STOP FRETTING that you are in the DOTL, that can not come until the Church Departs and the Anti-Christ is revealed.

So, allowing the English KJV translators to change the meaning to take a ding at the RCC is not a good idea. The Latin Vulgate Bible around for over 1000 years by the 1600s used the word Discessio which also meant DEPARTURE, so the KJV translators essentially changed the meaning to apostasy or rebellion, when there is NO FAITH being spoken of a all in the chapter. But there is a Gathering unto Christ being spoken about. The Church DEPARTS BEFORE the DOTL.

 

[garee]

Well, you can put in Rebellion for APOSTASY for the real word which meant DEPARTURE, that is the way people go down rabbit holes over time. The first 7 English translations had DEPARTURE[of the Church] thus the Thessalonians didn't have to fear the Day of the Lord and the Man of Son must also come BEFORE the DOTL, this Paul is telling them, STOP FRETTING that you are in the DOTL, that can not come until the Church Departs and the Anti-Christ is revealed.

So, allowing the English KJV translators to change the meaning to take a ding at the RCC is not a good idea. The Latin Vulgate Bible around for over 1000 years by the 1600s used the word Discessio which also meant DEPARTURE, so the KJV translators essentially changed the meaning to apostasy or rebellion, when there is NO FAITH being spoken of a all in the chapter. But there is a Gathering unto Christ being spoken about. The Church DEPARTS BEFORE the DOTL.

The antichrist was revealed in 1 John. On the last day the day of the lord . Like a thief in the night God will raise up all born again spirits and give them a new incorruptible body as the chaste virgin bride of Christ.

 

[Absolutely]

The dead ruse after trib and than the living next second

So postrib fit.

I don't understand why the dead rise first make impossible for post trib?

The Bible say the dead rise in the last trump and the living after the dead

John come at 7.00 AM
I come after john

Am I com before 7 AM

If I come after john than I must come after 7 AM
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Remember it happen in the last trumpet.
Please answer my question !
Is the last trumpet before tribulation

Rev 14 is against that belief.
You would have the dead rising after the harvest in rev 14.
So we know the resurrection can not be post trib.
There are no postrib rapture or resurrection verses.

 

[garee]

It would seem like those dead asleep will hear the trump first on the last day .Possibly avoiding a traffic jam with those on earth. LOL They both rise in the twinkling of a eye . Wonder why one is assigned first?