The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman
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...and in one of those linked posts, points out:
that the first seven English translations of the Bible translate [in 2Th2:3] it as "THE DEPARTURE [/THE DEPARTING] first"... before the kjv later translated it as "a falling away" (leaving off the definite article "the").
Perhaps it WAS easier for them, back in the days of those translations, than it is in our day of "internet gurus by the ton"... but it is our responsibility to search out a matter and search the scriptures to see if these things be so. (of course, it helps if one is made aware of it.
)
The BASIC meaning of that Grk word is "departure".
CONTEXT (and basic grammar) helps us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (in any given passage, where used).
That is simple and straightforward. Man/men/people make/s it complicated.
that the first seven English translations of the Bible translate [in 2Th2:3] it as "THE DEPARTURE [/THE DEPARTING] first"... before the kjv later translated it as "a falling away" (leaving off the definite article "the").
Perhaps it WAS easier for them, back in the days of those translations, than it is in our day of "internet gurus by the ton"... but it is our responsibility to search out a matter and search the scriptures to see if these things be so. (of course, it helps if one is made aware of it.
)The BASIC meaning of that Grk word is "departure".
CONTEXT (and basic grammar) helps us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (in any given passage, where used).
That is simple and straightforward. Man/men/people make/s it complicated.
Bibles and/ or a working knowledge of Greek. Do you suggest we check out Amazon for these Bibles? Or Waterstones? Where did you get yours? As for knowing Greek well some are more gifted in learning languages than others. In any case I understand that like Hebrew some words and phrases in Greek can mean more than one thing.
[emphasis mine ^ ]
"moon into blood / moon became as blood" (Joel 2:31 & Revelation 6:12-13)
is NOT identical to
"the moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25).
They are described entirely distinctly.
And they are said to occur at very distinct time-slots:
--one is "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect
--the other is "AFTER the tribulation [of those days;
which is referring, in context, to AFTER the "GREAT [tribulation]" aspect that Jesus spoke of in vv.15-22, esp v.21 (parallel to Rev7:14's wording also)]"
Completely distinct.
Will be back later this evening, to try to cover more response to other posts. Have a nice day, everyone!
"moon into blood / moon became as blood" (Joel 2:31 & Revelation 6:12-13)
is NOT identical to
"the moon shall not give her light" (Matthew 24:29 / Mark 13:24-25).
They are described entirely distinctly.
And they are said to occur at very distinct time-slots:
--one is "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect
--the other is "AFTER the tribulation [of those days;
which is referring, in context, to AFTER the "GREAT [tribulation]" aspect that Jesus spoke of in vv.15-22, esp v.21 (parallel to Rev7:14's wording also)]"
Completely distinct.
Will be back later this evening, to try to cover more response to other posts. Have a nice day, everyone!
a
i read rev 14 I do not see a verse say therevare 2 rapture
How you say the dead precede the living mean pre trib?
It can be post trib, the dead go to the air first and it only take a second, the next second are the living
Both can happen in the twinkle of an eye, so only need two twinkle of an eye
And it happen in the last trump. Do tribulation start in the last trump?
No. So pretrib not fit with this verse
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
i read rev 14 I do not see a verse say therevare 2 rapture
How you say the dead precede the living mean pre trib?
It can be post trib, the dead go to the air first and it only take a second, the next second are the living
Both can happen in the twinkle of an eye, so only need two twinkle of an eye
And it happen in the last trump. Do tribulation start in the last trump?
No. So pretrib not fit with this verse
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Regarding Rev 14
1 The picture is of 144,00 (probably Jewish) firstfruits consecrated to the Lord. Then The Gospel is proclaimed.
There is a proclamation that Babylon The Great has fallen. And a warning to those who worship The Beast.
Then the Saints are advised to have patient endurance.
2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.
3 There isn't a tribulation model where "the dead are gathered AFTER the living." Neither Pre/Mid nor Post Tribbers claim this.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source.
When reading bear in mind, there are 22 chapters in The Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The events are not listed in strict chronological order. The Semitic writing style we see in many prophetic books is used in the unfolding of revelation. The same themes and story can be re-told several times, sometimes from different perspectives filling in new or different details.
Regardless of your view on when the rapture occurs. there should be no disagreement on when the Great Tribulation begins, as Jesus Himself tells us:
MATTHEW 24:
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
MATTHEW 24:
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
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The setting is in the middle of the gt
How is the following not a rapture/gathering?;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Ripe fruit taken during the gt.
The 144k taken before them as firstfruits.
How is the following not a rapture/gathering?;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Ripe fruit taken during the gt.
The 144k taken before them as firstfruits.
Quote by Lucy ""2 There is a harvest were the grapes are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath. These are not raptured saints.""
Yep
I never claimed otherwise.
(The guy on a cloud taking ripe fruit is Jesus)
The next guy is an angel gathering rotten fruit...to be trodden in the wine press
...a totally separate issue.
Yep
I never claimed otherwise.
(The guy on a cloud taking ripe fruit is Jesus)
The next guy is an angel gathering rotten fruit...to be trodden in the wine press
...a totally separate issue.
""3 There isn't a tribulation model where "the dead are gathered AFTER the living." Neither Pre/Mid nor Post Tribbers claim this.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source. ""
Got it out of the bible.
You heard it first from me.
Nobody has ever seen it that I know of,and see how you overlooked it?
Even when I show it to people only a tiny fraction see it.
It is right there but definitely hidden.
You are making this up. Or you are repeating what you've heard from a dishonest source. ""
Got it out of the bible.
You heard it first from me.
Nobody has ever seen it that I know of,and see how you overlooked it?
Even when I show it to people only a tiny fraction see it.
It is right there but definitely hidden.
Oh good, another one. Rather than throw silly idioms about, learn the rules of debate, even the most basic. The onus is on the one that insists the post-tribulation rapture is scripture, not the pre.
The pretribulation rapture is proven with scripture throughout this thread. The post tribulation rapture was claimed to be in evidence when one posted the scripture of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, but that was not correct and the post tribulation rapture claim was not supported in either that chapter 4 nor in chapter 5. In fact, the pre-tribulation rapture was.
What comes next? Insults and pejoratives? If you and Lucy are not here to learn scripture, don't attempt to play games with it. There are Christians in this forum dedicated to Christ and we respect the Word, and His word.
Two different reapings then. You stopped at verse 16.
17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia
(ESV)
17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia
(ESV)
No, the rapture event preceded what is described in that verse. This is why the elect of the Father are gathered on the winds from Heaven, where they were raptured to. Earth is not Heaven.
31 And (BE)he will send out his angels with a loud (BF)trumpet call, and they will (BG)gather (BH)his elect from (BI)the four winds, (BJ)from one end of heaven to the other.
Listen to chapter 24
31 And (BE)he will send out his angels with a loud (BF)trumpet call, and they will (BG)gather (BH)his elect from (BI)the four winds, (BJ)from one end of heaven to the other.
Listen to chapter 24
the first gathering is the firstfruits 144k;
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
clearly the 144k are in heaven well into the gt.
Now that alone "violates" any supposition that the dead are raised postrib (we know that is impossible because 1 thes4 says the dead rise first)
But wait....firstfruits points to main harvest!!!
Here is the harvest after firstfruits:
rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
But,but ,but that aint in the gt..
Oh yes it is...look how the Holy Ghost put that dynamic in there;
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
See that? That was added by the Holy Spirit as a component to designate; 1) a warning and admonition just before the rapture of the ripe fruit or messianic Jews.
2)To cannonise the setting of that vivid gathering /rapture in the middle of or well into the gt,
So,we see that ONLY A PRETRIB RAPTURE harmonises wirth rev 14