Hell, Sheol, Hades, etc...

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Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#41
Mar 12, 2015
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#41
Melach said:
i hate it that new translations use hades in the text. its ridicilous. no one is talking about hades. its greek.

in english its hell and people in the streets understand hell but they dont understand sheol or hades. they think of greek mythology and hercules when you say hades. just say hell it doesnt matter if its lake of fire or place the rich man was. torment is torment is torment.
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Yes, but it is good to understand the differences between the use of the words. For example, through context and other scriptures, we know that Sheol/Hades is a temporary place of punishment, where Gehenna/lake of fire is the final place of punishment. And Tartarus is used only once describing the place where God put the angels who sinned, which is also under the earth and which is most likely referring to those angels who sinned by taking wives from mankind.

Personally, I would prefer the use of the words Hades, Sheol and Gehenna in translation, opposed to the word hell being used for all three.
 
W

watcher2013

Senior Member
#42
Aug 6, 2013
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#42
Ahwatukee said:
Good day watcher2013,

Just fyi, the word paradise is not exclusive to meaning heaven. The pigeonholing of words is an on-going problem.

When Jesus was on the cross, the man next to Him said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." The paradise that Jesus was speaking about, was that place down in Hades/Sheol where Abraham and Lazarus were which was a place of comfort, which was in opposition to the rich man who was on the other side of the chasm in torment in flame. When both the thief and Jesus died, their spirits departed and went to the same place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were.

In support of this, we know that Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father because of what He said to Mary after He resurrected:

"Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

Regarding to what happens to a believer at the time of death, according to 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:23, the spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ.

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

There are those who would claim that in the scripture above that Paul is speaking about the resurrection. However, the first part of the verse would do away with that notion since Paul says, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." In further support, the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body and standing up again. But Paul "I desire to depart and be with Christ." Therefore, he is speaking about the departure of his spirit at the time of death.

In opposition to this, when the unsaved die, their spirits depart and go down under the earth into Hades/Sheol to begin their punishment; where at the great white throne judgment they will be resurrected out and give an account to God for all of their sins.

That said, king David's body is still here in the dust of the earth, but his spirit is in the presence of the Lord. When he is resurrected, then his body will be reanimated and spirit reunited with his resurrected body.
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Is it mentioned in the bible that where the Father is that is where the paradise?
JESUS have not gone yet to the Father at that time..but that doesnt mean he meant paradise.
 
W

watcher2013

Senior Member
#43
Aug 6, 2013
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#43
watcher2013 said:
Is it mentioned in the bible that where the Father is that is where the paradise?
JESUS have not gone yet to the Father at that time..but that doesnt mean he meant paradise.
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Absent with the body presnt with the lord, does this mean every seconds you'll be an inch close to the Lord?
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#44
Mar 12, 2015
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#44
John146 said:
The KJV makes a clear distinction between hell and the lake of fire. The KJV hell is never the final destination, but temporary. The lake of fire is permanent. Hell is cast into the lake of fire.
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Yes, I agree. And so do the other translations make it clear. My point was/is that each of the thee words in the KJV are translated as "hell" which is not a clear distinction. It is by the context and other scriptures that we can deduce the distinction of these different locations.

If you will go back to my post and look at the verses that I provided, you will see Hades and the lake of fire are both translated as hell in the KJV. I did a complete study on Sheol, Hades, Tartartus and Gehenna. Below are the scriptures and their meanings:

===========================================================================

Characteristics of:

Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14

=======================================================================================

Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)

Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.


Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#45
Apr 27, 2017
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#45
watcher2013 said:
If u read luke 16.
The richman in hell was looking UP. Where lazarus and abraham were.
Paul said in cor. A man was caught up in paradise.
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There is no reason to believe that Abraham's Bosom (when it was located down in Sheol) wasn't located above the location of the Rich man. However it wasn't in heaven (for then the rich man would have seen past the earth and it's activities, past the 1st heaven (our sky) past the second heaven (universes expanse) and into the third heaven (God's abode). So no, Abraham's Bosom was not there.

In terms of Paul's writing in Corinthians, he didn't say Paradise. He said he knew a man that was taken up to the Third Heaven. So it's not the same account.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#46
Mar 12, 2015
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#46
watcher2013 said:
Is it mentioned in the bible that where the Father is that is where the paradise?
JESUS have not gone yet to the Father at that time..but that doesnt mean he meant paradise.
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Both heaven, the garden of Eden and the place of comfort in Sheol, are places of paradise. As I said, we should not pigeonhole words to refer to one specific place or thing, but should consider the context.

Regarding Jesus saying "today you will be with me in paradise," I believe that He was referring to that same place of comfort where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was down under the earth in Sheol/Hades. Below is the actual scripture:

"Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#47
Mar 12, 2015
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#47
watcher2013 said:
If u read luke 16.
The richman in hell was looking UP. Where lazarus and abraham were.
Paul said in cor. A man was caught up in paradise.
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Many misinterpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven, which is not true. The scripture states that Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in Sheol/Hades and that there were two areas separated by a great chasm, trench, ravine, etc. On one side was a place of comfort and on the other side a place of torment in flame. There is no reason to interpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven.

"But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ "
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#48
Jan 13, 2016
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#48
Ahwatukee said:
Yes, I agree. And so do the other translations make it clear. My point was/is that each of the thee words in the KJV are translated as "hell" which is not a clear distinction. It is by the context and other scriptures that we can deduce the distinction of these different locations.

If you will go back to my post and look at the verses that I provided, you will see Hades and the lake of fire are both translated as hell in the KJV. I did a complete study on Sheol, Hades, Tartartus and Gehenna. Below are the scriptures and their meanings:

===========================================================================

Characteristics of:

Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14

=======================================================================================

Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)

Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.


Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
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It's confusing when different words are used for the same place. The KJV is consistent with the term hell. Plus, you say hell and most people know what that is. Sheol and Hades just does not have the same impact. They sound like mythology.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#49
Mar 12, 2015
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#49
Chris1975 said:
There is no reason to believe that Abraham's Bosom (when it was located down in Sheol) wasn't located above the location of the Rich man. However it wasn't in heaven (for then the rich man would have seen past the earth and it's activities, past the 1st heaven (our sky) past the second heaven (universes expanse) and into the third heaven (God's abode). So no, Abraham's Bosom was not there.

In terms of Paul's writing in Corinthians, he didn't say Paradise. He said he knew a man that was taken up to the Third Heaven. So it's not the same account.
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Hi Chris1975,

Just fyi, Paul did say that he was caught up to the third heaven and paradise:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#50
Mar 12, 2015
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#50
John146 said:
It's confusing when different words are used for the same place. The KJV is consistent with the term hell. Plus, you say hell and most people know what that is. Sheol and Hades just does not have the same impact. They sound like mythology.
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Well, we have to take into consideration that, Aramaic, Latin and Greek were the predominant languages used at that time. Pilot's message on Jesus' cross was "Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews" which was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. In Hebrew it was called Sheol. In Greek is Hades. Below Paul quoting Sheol from the OT uses the Greek equivalent:

Hebrew (Psalms 16:10)
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Greek (Acts 2:27)
because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#51
Apr 27, 2017
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#51
Ahwatukee said:
Hi Chris1975,

Just fyi, Paul did say that he was caught up to the third heaven and paradise:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise.
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Yup, you are right !
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#52
Jan 13, 2016
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#52
Ahwatukee said:
Well, we have to take into consideration that, Aramaic, Latin and Greek were the predominant languages used at that time. Pilot's message on Jesus' cross was "Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews" which was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. In Hebrew it was called Sheol. In Greek is Hades. Below Paul quoting Sheol from the OT uses the Greek equivalent:

Hebrew (Psalms 16:10)
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Greek (Acts 2:27)
because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
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That's just my point. The KJV translates in both instances hell, being consistent all the way through. The different words are confusing. No one is confused about hell.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#53
Jan 13, 2016
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#53
Ahwatukee said:
Hi Chris1975,

Just fyi, Paul did say that he was caught up to the third heaven and paradise:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise.
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Paradise was once called Abraham's bosom, but was translated from the heart of the earth to the third heaven. Paradise is not heaven, but it's location is in the third heaven, the dwelling place of God.
 
W

watcher2013

Senior Member
#54
Aug 6, 2013
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#54
John146 said:
Paradise was once called Abraham's bosom, but was translated from the heart of the earth to the third heaven. Paradise is not heaven, but it's location is in the third heaven, the dwelling place of God.
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Who said paradise was translated....
 
W

watcher2013

Senior Member
#55
Aug 6, 2013
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#55
Ahwatukee said:
Both heaven, the garden of Eden and the place of comfort in Sheol, are places of paradise. As I said, we should not pigeonhole words to refer to one specific place or thing, but should consider the context.

Regarding Jesus saying "today you will be with me in paradise," I believe that He was referring to that same place of comfort where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was down under the earth in Sheol/Hades. Below is the actual scripture:

"Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Click to expand...
Is it possible though that the paradise was talking about is the same paradise mentioned by Jesus?
Is it also possible that the Father's throne is not in this paradise but in a different area above paradise?
 
W

watcher2013

Senior Member
#56
Aug 6, 2013
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#56
Ahwatukee said:
Many misinterpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven, which is not true. The scripture states that Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in Sheol/Hades and that there were two areas separated by a great chasm, trench, ravine, etc. On one side was a place of comfort and on the other side a place of torment in flame. There is no reason to interpret Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven.

"But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’ "
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Whats very clear is the rich man is in hell/sheol.
He look up..


How is it not possible that to be in heaven?
When it is possible to make another chamber...with great chasm in between...

Do not forget. LAZARUS WAS CARRIED BY ANGELS..
 
W

watcher2013

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#57
Aug 6, 2013
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#57
watcher2013 said:
Is it possible though that the paradise paul was talking about is the same paradise mentioned by Jesus?
Is it also possible that the Father's throne is not in this paradise but in a different area above paradise?
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Edited
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#58
Mar 12, 2015
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#58
John146 said:
That's just my point. The KJV translates in both instances hell, being consistent all the way through. The different words are confusing. No one is confused about hell.
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So...… when someone reads hell representing Tartartus and hell representing Hades and hell representing the lake of fire, that is not confusing? Because I have studied it I know which place hell is being referred to. But if you just have the word hell being used for al three, I would think that would be more confusing, especially to a new believer, wouldn't you? Every time they saw the word hell, they would be thinking it is referring to one place, which it isn't.

So if I was reading scripture and the word Hades is used, I know that the place of departed spirits within the heart of the earth is being referred to. If the words Gehenna or lake of fire are being used, I know that it is referring to the final place of punishment.
 
J

John146

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#59
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
Ahwatukee said:
So...… when someone reads hell representing Tartartus and hell representing Hades and hell representing the lake of fire, that is not confusing? Because I have studied it I know which place hell is being referred to. But if you just have the word hell being used for al three, I would think that would be more confusing, especially to a new believer, wouldn't you? Every time they saw the word hell, they would be thinking it is referring to one place, which it isn't.

So if I was reading scripture and the word Hades is used, I know that the place of departed spirits within the heart of the earth is being referred to. If the words Gehenna or lake of fire are being used, I know that it is referring to the final place of punishment.
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In the KJV hell is distinct from the lake of fire. The KJV has hell as a temporary torment, while there’s no doubt that the lake of fire is eternal torment.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#60
Mar 12, 2015
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#60
John146 said:
Paradise was once called Abraham's bosom, but was translated from the heart of the earth to the third heaven. Paradise is not heaven, but it's location is in the third heaven, the dwelling place of God.
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The third heaven is still heaven and is called paradise and is where Paul was caught up to.

My point was/is, that we should not pigeonhole names, such as paradise, trumpets, clouds, etc. Because when people do this, they distort scripture. The following is a good example: in 1 cor.15:52 we read that at the "last trump" that the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be changed and will be caught up. So people take that "last trumpet" and apply it to the seventh trumpet of the seven trumpet judgments in Revelation and in doing so they distort the scriptures. And why? Because the word "trumpet" is mentioned in both scriptures.

The place in Hades/sheol that was a place of comfort was also a paradise for the OT saints, which is what I believe Jesus was talking about when He told the thief, "today you will be with me in paradise." Because of the pigeonholing of the word paradise, they interpret Jesus as saying to the thief that he would be with Him in heaven.
 
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