What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[DeighAnn]

I don" believe that we should base our believes on what we think , if the BIBLE don't tell us I think we are best to leave it alone . OUR minds don't understand GODs way .We haft to have HIS HOLY WORD to guide us. GOD BLESS

Well you obviously feel you have it down and are good to go.


2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[iamsoandso]

z
The deadly wound happen in 1798, when HE WAS PUT IN PRISON WHERE HE DIED . & THIS SEPERATED church & STATE so the Catholic Church Could no longer turn them over to the state to have them killed. Now the wound is being healed .They are all ready Church & state again . & He's growing power , & before we know it He will have the power to turn us over to the state & have us killed .GOD BLESS

The head that received the deadly wound was "in the pit" at the time Revelation was given. The angel says he will ascend out of the pit in Revelation 17:8. He is the beast that "was, was not, yet is" so at the time that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given it had already received it's wound(before Revelation was given to John) so it makes no sense to think it received it's deadly wound after that time in history.

 

[bud62]

Well you obviously feel you have it down and are good to go.


2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I fill that I' m non Much at all , Sure have not attain , & need GODs mercy & correction to guide me in HIS paths .GOD BLESS .
The BIBLE verse where good .But I didn't How they tied in to what I said.

 

[GaryA]

Yep Luke 21 and 9:27, Mark 9:1, and Mat 24, and in Mat 10, and 16, oh yea ad Mat 23.

That is what I'm referring to, and no amount of "in original Greek", or mental gymnastic can convince me that He meant the exact opposite of what He said. Trust me I have read at least many of the arguments you would send me, I have read the opposing view on this well and I am still open to anything I haven't heard yet, but no amount of "Greek+[bracketed words]+(parentheses)" can convince me that when Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened", He meant "Way in the future, long after you are all dead, LONG after this generation has passed away, these things will then happen. By the way write this down, it may come in handy later."

See how dumb that looks on "paper"?
Yes that was one one the instances of Jesus saying this is recorded.

In the Greek, it is saying "before this generation passes, all of these things will begin to come to pass"...

 

[GaryA]

In the Greek, it is saying "before this generation passes, all of these things will begin to come to pass"...

The sense of timing in the 'Grammar of the Language' of the words in the Greek is begin-and-continue, not begin-to-end-and-done.

 

[Absolutely]

but there is no gentile bride. the body of Christ includes both jews and gentiles

Generally gentile.

I dont know the percentage. Maybe 90% gentile.

If there are 10 cows in a herd of 100 buffalo,it is by any measure a herd of buffalo.

Does not mean calling it that is wrong.

I am fully aware of the small segment of jews in the body.

By that logic that the bride can not possibly be gentile it must equally grate on the nerves when we say israel is a jewish nation.

Even though gentiles live there.

 

[Absolutely]

If you believe in the rapture it would do you some good to study Jeremiah 4:17 - 29 . AND HE dose slay all the wicked here & it's plain . & even in Mattew it says that the wicked is gathered first then the righteous . Matthew 13:30 , The ones that are taken are dead upon the ground ,for food . GOD BLESS AS HE sees fit

If you look it up,there is another passage where the righteous are harvested first.

There really is no place where God removes the wicked first. That one reference you posted even has a warning against trying to remove the weeds first.

 

[GdaxBbb]

I used to believe in it as you mentioned everyone teaches it, but there is a very strong case for something called pre-wraith which would be near mid trib. And some of the verses sound like post trib.

But after my own personal research pre trib seems the weakest biblically.

Also from a practical standpoint plan for the worst and be happy if the unexpected happens. Plan for post trib and of God takes us pre trib awesome, at least you’ll be able to cope with it, if it doesn’t happen and start to question your faith.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I used to believe in it as you mentioned everyone teaches it, but there is a very strong case for something called pre-wraith which would be near mid trib. And some of the verses sound like post trib.

But after my own personal research pre trib seems the weakest biblically.

Check out this short video I put in another post some time back:

So here is an excerpt from a post I made some time back, about the Greek text in Rev5:9 -

[quoting that excerpt]

Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US"), and MR had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

[see @ this vid:

(approx 9-min vid total)--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp re: verse 9 ]

[end quoting that post]

 

[bud62]

If you look it up,there is another passage where the righteous are harvested first.

There really is no place where God removes the wicked first. That one reference you posted even has a warning against trying to remove the weeds first.

That Is tell us for us not to try to do the harves ,that HE will do it when HE COME WE don't know who going to saved ,

 

[bud62]

The sense of timing in the 'Grammar of the Language' of the words in the Greek is begin-and-continue, not begin-to-end-and-done.

YES it is HARD to tell someone something when they are set in there ways ,

 

[PlainWord]

z
The deadly wound happen in 1798, when HE WAS PUT IN PRISON WHERE HE DIED . & THIS SEPERATED church & STATE so the Catholic Church Could no longer turn them over to the state to have them killed. Now the wound is being healed .They are all ready Church & state again . & He's growing power , & before we know it He will have the power to turn us over to the state & have us killed .GOD BLESS

Actually, the deadly wound happened when Nero stabbed himself in the neck and died. Rome was thrown into a brutal and bloody 3 way civil war which plunged the empire into darkness. It was healed in Dec 69 AD when Vespasian was declared Emperor. Vespasian was the 7th head of the Roman Beast.

 

[PlainWord]

In post #1133,page #57 of this thread I stated my view on the temple. I have never been pre trib. I'm just reading along in the thread the same as you. What I do see is both preterism and dispensationism walking into a trap. That is the head received a deadly wound in ad70 and was in the pit then in 1948 the two horned beast Christian Zionism/Jewish Zionism healed that deadly wound and it ascended out of the pit (Rev. 17:8).

So any temple they build will be in a place where it ought not be, that is I am among the many Christians who are the temple of the Spirit of God and he dwells in me. In short the temple they will build denies the true temple and God will not dwell in it the Man of sin will. Afterwards Jesus my Lord who is the head of the building and those of his body will descend to earth and remove the temple men have built.

What are your main issues with Preterism or what I call, In-Millennialism?

 

[garee]

Oh gosh no!! They were in the Mosaic Age of the Law. When they died they went to Hades to the bosom of Abraham, apart from God. We are saved by Grace. We do not do sacrifices. Can you imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc??? My kids would have been so angry. When we die, we do not "SLEEP" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. We go straight to heaven as so many who've had near death experiences have testified about. It's a huge difference between the two ages.

In the early first century, the disciples spoke of "the age to come." They spoke of it because it was coming really soon. Some tasted the power of our new age. Here are a few examples of our age being discussed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Can I get an Amen that God isn't treating us the same way as He treated some in the last age??? If we were held to the rigorous standards of the Law, many of us, myself included, might have had the earth open up and swallow us for some of the things I've done in my sinful past.

I can imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc before the reformation.

The scripture speaks of "two generations". The generation of Adam as in all die all are under the letter of the law also called the evil generation ( no faith ) or the generation of vipers. And the generation or born again beginning of Christ the righteous generation. The generation Noah looked towards coming on the last day when we receive our new incorruptible bodies.

Genesis 7:And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Psalm 14:5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

The evil generation, natural unconverted men that again; do not walk by faith as those who literalize the signified understanding. looking for signs as wonderments.

Deuteronomy 1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.

Matthew 12:34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:


Luke 11:29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet

 

[garee]

What about those who were babies when they died? Or never heard the Word of God their entire lives? Or were taught a false doctrine all their lives so they had no truth?
They are all considered lost as in they did not take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Are you saying they never even get a chance at salvation?

I would be careful not to make salvation "by chance" and not a "work of Christ's faith" as a "labor of his love".

He can save a baby yet in the womb whose name was written in the lambs of God book . You could saved from that foundation when God did work those 6 days. He rested on the 7th .Our Sabbath rest. He knows who are his . It would seem he revealed to David you can go to his child but he cannot come to us.

In the new heavens and earth the former things of this corrupted creation will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

 

[garee]

Actually, the deadly wound happened when Nero stabbed himself in the neck and died. Rome was thrown into a brutal and bloody 3 way civil war which plunged the empire into darkness. It was healed in Dec 69 AD when Vespasian was declared Emperor. Vespasian was the 7th head of the Roman Beast.

What would the witness of men have to do with the witness of God which by that time was sealed up .Revelation is still the last chapter as the witness of God.

1 John 5:7-10 King James Version (KJV) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The record is as it is written in the law and the prophets signified by Moses and Elijah . The two witnesses.

The word it in as it is written represents the unseen faith of God that works in those who do believe or those who exercise that faith that comes from hearing. . the witness of God...

 

[Absolutely]

What are your main issues with Preterism or what I call, In-Millennialism?

He told you earlier.

Basically debunked your leaps into nowhere.

 

[PlainWord]

My comments in blue, the Word in Red.

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.” (70 AD)

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things (TEMPLE DESTRUCTION) are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. (EARLY 70 AD. This according to Josephus "War 6-5-2" "Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation...")

9 But when you hear of wars (Roman-Britain Wars 43-96 AD, Roman-Parthian War 58-63 AD, German Uprisings, Roman Civil War 68-69 AD) and commotions (Jewish Revolt 66-69 AD), do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end (8th of Elul, 70 AD) will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (Mentioned Above). 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, (In the writings of the first century historian Tacitus we read a description of the conditions in A.D. 51 in Rome: "This year witnessed many prodigies signs or omens... including repeated earthquakes." Josephus accounts that an earthquake in Judea was such a magnitude that "the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men." He also wrote that earthquakes were "a common calamity", and indicated that God Himself had brought them about for a special purpose. Then there is the book of Acts that records "a great earthquake that shook the foundations of the prison house" (Acts 16:26). There were earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea. Paul started churches at Colosse and Hierapolis. However, these two cities, along with Laodicea, suffered a great earthquake in approximately A.D. 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon after the earthquake, but Colosse and Hierapolis were not. and famines and pestilences (41-42 AD in Rome under Claudius, The fourth century historian Orosius mentions this famine in Syria which occurred in 46 and 47 A.D mentioned in Acts 11); and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven ("Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. -Josephus War 6-5-3). 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons (Already pointed this out from Acts 4 and other examples are contained throughout the Book of Acts). You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist (Already pointed this out from Acts 4 and throughout the Acts of the Apostles). 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death (Stoning of Stephen 34 AD, James the son of Zebedee 44 AD, Peter and Paul around 66-67 AD and all the rest between them except John). 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake (See Acts 17, Acts 19:28, et al). 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls. (Spiritually speaking of course because they were physically harmed with most of them martyred)

The Destruction of Jerusalem

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (This first happened In 66 AD when Roman governor, Gessius Florus responded to the Jewish anti-tax protests. Florus plundering the Second Temple, claiming the money was for the Emperor, and the next day launching a raid on the city, arresting numerous senior Jewish figures. Vespasian invaded Galilee in 67 and fighting continued outside Jerusalem in all the towns and village of Galilee and Judea until Titus arrived in early 70 AD) 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance (For not accepting and killing their Messiah), that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (Mothers were forced to eat their newborn babies due to lack of food) For there will be great distress in the land (Rome was wiping out every city, destroying all the vegetation in their scorched earth policy. They cut down trees for miles to make siege walls. Josephus said the land was completely barren as if it was before creation) and wrath upon this people. (Both God and the Romans were furious with those in Jerusalem. During Titus' 5 to 7 month siege of Jerusalem all food was gone and people died by the hundreds of thousands) 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations (Those who escaped fled to Egypt and all surrounding nations. The tyrants inside the city killed their own people by sword by the thousands, Titus would kill a bunch more. Once Jerusalem was destroyed only 98,000 Jews out of 1.2 million remained. Some were sold into slavery others were taken back to Rome to partake in the victory parade. The Arch to Titus' victory can still be found in the Forum in Rome near the Colosseum today.) And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (They trampled it alright. They left nothing standing excepts 3 tower walls including the wall to Ft. Antonia which the Jews today call the Western Wall. After the city was destroyed, Titus left a garrison of 3 forts and returned to Rome ending the 'Times of the Gentile.")

Sadly I've got to run. Will finish this later.

 

[PlainWord]

He told you earlier.

Basically debunked your leaps into nowhere.

Spoken by the truly uninformed and historically ignorant.

 

[Jimbone]

In the Greek, it is saying "before this generation passes, all of these things will begin to come to pass"...

Okay, no problem. But just know you're adding that and it's not what any rational person standing there listening to Him would have thought He meant, and to be honest what you're saying makes no sense in the context He is saying it in. He says
"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened".
So what you're saying it means is "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have begun to happened"

That makes "0" sense at all. To me. The parallel verse in Matthew makes it even worse.
Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Here He is saying these things will come on THIS generation, then goes on to let us know is was going to happen soon and in Jerusalem, not in 2,000 years in the USA. These words were not directed at you, they are to you, but when Jesus spoke He was not looking into our eyes when He said it. It wasn't to us in the way you're trying to make it. We don't get to "retcon" God's word like this to make it apply to us.