What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[PlainWord]

It would appear we are in the age of Adam as in all die. The same age as the disciples and patriarchs were in.

Oh gosh no!! They were in the Mosaic Age of the Law. When they died they went to Hades to the bosom of Abraham, apart from God. We are saved by Grace. We do not do sacrifices. Can you imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc??? My kids would have been so angry. When we die, we do not "SLEEP" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. We go straight to heaven as so many who've had near death experiences have testified about. It's a huge difference between the two ages.

In the early first century, the disciples spoke of "the age to come." They spoke of it because it was coming really soon. Some tasted the power of our new age. Here are a few examples of our age being discussed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Can I get an Amen that God isn't treating us the same way as He treated some in the last age??? If we were held to the rigorous standards of the Law, many of us, myself included, might have had the earth open up and swallow us for some of the things I've done in my sinful past.

 

[PlainWord]

'K, are you saying that the "believing Jews" DID escape, and the "unbelieving Jews" DIDN'T, so were "trapped inside" and were "refused [to let them leave]" (and only them, the "unbelieving Jews")?

...coz Revelation 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place having been prepared there by God, so that they should nourish her there one thousand two hundred sixty days."


[recall, I (as a "futurist" if you wanna call it that) DO believe that Luke 21:21 *IS* indeed speaking of the 70ad events, in the SECTION of the Olivet Discourse devoted to "the 70ad events" (vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there) BECAUSE OF the word in v.12 "BUT BEFORE all these [but BEFORE all these 'beginning of birth pangs' JUST NAMED in vv.8-11 (we know are parallel to Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8)… BEFORE all those, is it that]" that the 70ad events described in vv.12-24a must take place... not AFTER the BoBPs and not TOGETHER-WITH the BoBPs, but "BEFORE" them! the 70ad events must occur (and, note, I do not say "immediately before" but "SEQUENTIALLY before"--because in the far-future parts of the Olivet Discourse, "the woman" INDEED *FLED* [will do] to the place God has prepared for her, and for the 1260 days remaining, is [will be] there)]

K, are you saying that the "believing Jews" DID escape, and the "unbelieving Jews" DIDN'T, so were "trapped inside" and were "refused [to let them leave]" (and only them, the "unbelieving Jews")?

YES!!!

...coz Revelation 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place having been prepared there by God, so that they should nourish her there one thousand two hundred sixty days."

These were the believing Jews who went into the wilderness, to Pella, and they escaped the great tribulation of Jerusalem. Not one was lost.

[recall, I (as a "futurist" if you wanna call it that) DO believe that Luke 21:21 *IS* indeed speaking of the 70ad events, in the SECTION of the Olivet Discourse devoted to "the 70ad events" (vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there) BECAUSE OF the word in v.12 "BUT BEFORE all these [but BEFORE all these 'beginning of birth pangs' JUST NAMED in vv.8-11 (we know are parallel to Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8)… BEFORE all those, is it that]" that the 70ad events described in vv.12-24a must take place... not AFTER the BoBPs and not TOGETHER-WITH the BoBPs, but "BEFORE" them! the 70ad events must occur (and, note, I do not say "immediately before" but "SEQUENTIALLY before"--because in the far-future parts of the Olivet Discourse, "the woman" INDEED *FLED* [will do] to the place God has prepared for her, and for the 1260 days remaining, is [will be] there)]

[/QUOTE]

There are no "far future" events in Mat 24. All of them happened from around 34 - 70 AD including the BoBPs, AoD, GT, Return of Christ, etc. They didn't have to wait long for things to start. Compare these passages:

Luke 21: 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.

We find this fulfilled almost immediately:

Acts 4:
Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled.

You have every element of the Luke 21 passage found in Acts 4.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Okay, so what I think you are saying is that the Acts 4 things were the "but BEFORE all these [beginning of birth PANGS]"...

What then do you believe constituted THOSE ['the beginning of birth PANGS'] that were slated to come AFTER that??

[and may I remind the readers that the INITIAL one of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (parallel the FIRST SEAL)]" is then WHEN the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" would take place (/commence to unfold upon the earth)... so bear in mind THAT SEQUENCE revealed by this]

 

[bud62]

Jesus is still coming as a thief right before the seventh plague. which will be his coming back. If he coming to get the Church , why is he coming after the sixth plague for , looks like HE's a little , Coming after the sixth , there about over then , Revelation 16:15- 19

 

[bud62]

Oh gosh no!! They were in the Mosaic Age of the Law. When they died they went to Hades to the bosom of Abraham, apart from God. We are saved by Grace. We do not do sacrifices. Can you imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc??? My kids would have been so angry. When we die, we do not "SLEEP" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. We go straight to heaven as so many who've had near death experiences have testified about. It's a huge difference between the two ages.

In the early first century, the disciples spoke of "the age to come." They spoke of it because it was coming really soon. Some tasted the power of our new age. Here are a few examples of our age being discussed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Can I get an Amen that God isn't treating us the same way as He treated some in the last age??? If we were held to the rigorous standards of the Law, many of us, myself included, might have had the earth open up and swallow us for some of the things I've done in my sinful past.

God dose not treat some better than others ,we & they are the same . GOD is the same yesterday ,today , & forever !!! they were saved by faith also . GOD BLESS

 

[bud62]

HE has no repect of persons .

 

[DeighAnn]

Oh gosh no!! They were in the Mosaic Age of the Law. When they died they went to Hades to the bosom of Abraham, apart from God. We are saved by Grace. We do not do sacrifices. Can you imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc??? My kids would have been so angry. When we die, we do not "SLEEP" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. We go straight to heaven as so many who've had near death experiences have testified about. It's a huge difference between the two ages.

In the early first century, the disciples spoke of "the age to come." They spoke of it because it was coming really soon. Some tasted the power of our new age. Here are a few examples of our age being discussed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Can I get an Amen that God isn't treating us the same way as He treated some in the last age??? If we were held to the rigorous standards of the Law, many of us, myself included, might have had the earth open up and swallow us for some of the things I've done in my sinful past.

I got an AMEN.

 

[DeighAnn]

God dose not treat some better than others ,we & they are the same . GOD is the same yesterday ,today , & forever !!! they were saved by faith also . GOD BLESS

There will be some naked and some with white robes, though it isn't God who decides but us. (and our works do follow us and will be either rewarded with a lot or a little or punishment)

 

[bud62]

If you believe in the rapture it would do you some good to study Jeremiah 4:17 - 29 . AND HE dose slay all the wicked here & it's plain . & even in Mattew it says that the wicked is gathered first then the righteous . Matthew 13:30 , The ones that are taken are dead upon the ground ,for food . GOD BLESS AS HE sees fit

 

[DeighAnn]

If you believe in the rapture it would do you some good to study Jeremiah 4:17 - 29 . AND HE dose slay all the wicked here & it's plain . & even in Mattew it says that the wicked is gathered first then the righteous . Matthew 13:30 , The ones that are taken are dead upon the ground ,for food . GOD BLESS AS HE sees fit

Yes, but when your flesh dies, your soul doesn't. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is not one soul God has ever created that is "dead, dead". Not one soul will die until JUDGMENT. That is why we have two bodies. Like planting a "sunflower" seed. That seed dies and the plant grows from it. When this body, this flesh body, this terrestrial body dies, the flesh decays or what ever,

Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

but we "put on" "step into" "shed the flesh" and are in the incorriptible, celestial body.

True, might end up on the "wrong" side with the rich man,


But many of the wicked He slays will have a chance before the second death to get it right, and not to be deceived again, and to attain their "immortality". That is what the Lords Day is all about. Saving every last child He can.


So it is the flesh body that drops to the ground, nothing but on its way back to dust the soul having left, gone back to Him who gave it.

 

[bud62]

Oh gosh no!! They were in the Mosaic Age of the Law. When they died they went to Hades to the bosom of Abraham, apart from God. We are saved by Grace. We do not do sacrifices. Can you imagine having to kill baby lambs, etc??? My kids would have been so angry. When we die, we do not "SLEEP" in Hades awaiting the resurrection. We go straight to heaven as so many who've had near death experiences have testified about. It's a huge difference between the two ages.

In the early first century, the disciples spoke of "the age to come." They spoke of it because it was coming really soon. Some tasted the power of our new age. Here are a few examples of our age being discussed.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ephesians 2:7
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Can I get an Amen that God isn't treating us the same way as He treated some in the last age??? If we were held to the rigorous standards of the Law, many of us, myself included, might have had the earth open up and swallow us for some of the things I've done in my sinful past.

How could you get all the saints that died in Abraham BOSOM . I don't think you could get them all in Knoxville little long in one mans BOSOM . DON"T make sence to me .They are in the earth a sleep till JESUS comes back & a wecks them.

 

[DeighAnn]

^ Okay, so what I think you are saying is that the Acts 4 things were the "but BEFORE all these [beginning of birth PANGS]"...

What then do you believe constituted THOSE ['the beginning of birth PANGS'] that were slated to come AFTER that??

[and may I remind the readers that the INITIAL one of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," meaning the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (parallel the FIRST SEAL)]" is then WHEN the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" would take place (/commence to unfold upon the earth)... so bear in mind THAT SEQUENCE revealed by this]

THIS Pang thing just got a hold of you. So when do you believe this first pang happened? And how long was it till the next? And now that we are in the last generation how fast do you see them coming until they are rapid fire (the tribulation of Satan) and the "the new age" is birthed?

 

[bud62]

Yes, but when your flesh dies, your soul doesn't. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is not one soul God has ever created that is "dead, dead". Not one soul will die until JUDGMENT. That is why we have two bodies. Like planting a "sunflower" seed. That seed dies and the plant grows from it. When this body, this flesh body, this terrestrial body dies, the flesh decays or what ever,

Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

but we "put on" "step into" "shed the flesh" and are in the incorriptible, celestial body.

True, might end up on the "wrong" side with the rich man,


But many of the wicked He slays will have a chance before the second death to get it right, and not to be deceived again, and to attain their "immortality". That is what the Lords Day is all about. Saving every last child He can.


So it is the flesh body that drops to the ground, nothing but on its way back to dust the soul having left, gone back to Him who gave it.

If we got eternal life that would make GOD a lier & the soul that sinneth, it shall die . this makes GOD a lier too. I hope GOD helps US , I know HE will because He loves US MUCH .

 

[DeighAnn]

How could you get all the saints that died in Abraham BOSOM . I don't think you could get them all in Knoxville little long in one mans BOSOM . DON"T make sence to me .They are in the earth a sleep till JESUS comes back & a wecks them.

Oh my. Let me ask you this. (One of my top 10 favorites) And if you haven't read it all do. Great.


2 Kings 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

2 Kings 6:18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.


Where are these souls living? Not Elisha and his arm bearor but the army he couldn't see before his eyes were opened?


God is the God of the living, not the dead. How else when He returns is he gonna bring those who have died WITH HIM?
1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[DeighAnn]

If we got eternal life that would make GOD a lier & the soul that sinneth, it shall die . this makes GOD a lier too. I hope GOD helps US , I know HE will because He loves US MUCH .

You completely lost me here. God a liar? As for that soul that sinneth, we are told it dies at the throne judgment. I haven't seen anywhere we are told it dies before that.

 

[DeighAnn]

There has only been one named to perish so far (7000 not named) and even he isn't dead.

 

[bud62]

THIS Pang thing just got a hold of you. So when do you believe this first pang happened? And how long was it till the next? And now that we are in the last generation how fast do you see them coming until they are rapid fire (the tribulation of Satan) and the "the new age" is birthed?

I believe the BIBLE teaches That when JESUS comes ,HE won't set HIS feet on the earth . HE will be above it .HE slays the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming . Then HE will call the dead in CHRIST up first . Then we that are alive & remain are change & go up to meet HIM in the air . all the lost are dead .all the saved ARE with JESUS . This will be the spiritual chain for Satan .There is no one here for Him to temp . But His demons , For a !000 years .HE bring us to heaven for a 1000 years , To show us why our love ones or maybe our pasture . Because HE wants to show us why they will be destroyed . before GOD destroys them . When the 1000 years are over . We will be in the NEW Jerusalem coming down on the earth .GOD will raise all the wicked , Satan will deceive them . Maybe clam to have raise them from the dead , I don't know , But their only hope is to take the city where the tree of life is . Anyway Satan gets them to attack THE CITY OF GOD .& the BIBLE says that fire will come down from GOD out of Heaven, & devoured THEM . That is their second death , After they have suffered for their sins , witch will be different for each person . Then GOD will bring them to ashes upon the GROUND . like Malachi 4:1 - 3 tells us . and ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall beashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this saith the LORD of HOSTS, Then when the saints go out of the city they will be walking on the ashes of the wicked . GOD BLESS . I pray that this mite help some one. I love to tellthe story of JESUS & HIS LOVE .

 

[bud62]

You completely lost me here. God a liar? As for that soul that sinneth, we are told it dies at the throne judgment. I haven't seen anywhere we are told it dies before that.

Ether way it dies & return to the dust . No one that is lost when they go to sleep will have eternal life . & they will be brote to ashes upon the ground . & their eternal destruction will be for ever gone & will be only ashes . JESUS CAME to give HIS saints eternal life . Because they don't have it , & nether do the lost. GOD BLESS

 

[DeighAnn]

Ether way it dies & return to the dust . No one that is lost when they go to sleep will have eternal life . & they will be brote to ashes upon the ground . & their eternal destruction will be for ever gone & will be only ashes . JESUS CAME to give HIS saints eternal life . Because they don't have it , & nether do the lost. GOD BLESS

What about those who were babies when they died? Or never heard the Word of God their entire lives? Or were taught a false doctrine all their lives so they had no truth?
They are all considered lost as in they did not take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Are you saying they never even get a chance at salvation?

 

[bud62]

What about those who were babies when they died? Or never heard the Word of God their entire lives? Or were taught a false doctrine all their lives so they had no truth?
They are all considered lost as in they did not take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Are you saying they never even get a chance at salvation?

I don" believe that we should base our believes on what we think , if the BIBLE don't tell us I think we are best to leave it alone . OUR minds don't understand GODs way .We haft to have HIS HOLY WORD to guide us. GOD BLESS