What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Nope
The flying scorpions and hailstones of fire as well as oceans turning to blood would have been recorded.

You guys get silly trying to make that stuff fit.

Besides that rev was written around 90 ad

No matter how you slice it ,historicist view is poorly thought out.

To top it off,israel becoming a nation is a real stick in the side.

Historicist view must also reframe that no brainer as well.
I don't know why I am wasting my time on you because you are all in with your futurist nonsense. But I wanted to clear one thing up. Revelation was NOT written in 90 AD. It was written during the reign of Nero. There is only one source for this 95-96 AD nonsense and it was a 2nd century French priest who heard from Polycarp 35 years earlier who recalled a discussion he had with John. So you have a 35 year old discussion of double hearsay by a non-witness. Trump's whistle blower had more first hand knowledge than this. All others cite back to this mistake.

We have several other more reliable sources to date Revelation:

Murdock Syriac (5th Century)

"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."

Etheridge Syriac (5th Century)

THE REVELATION WHICH WAS MADE UNTO JUHANON THE EVANGELIST, FROM ALOHA, IN PATHAMON THE ISLAND, WHITHER HE HAD BEEN CAST BY NERO CAESAR.

I'm not going to respond to anymore of your posts. Go read Josephus then tell me what you think. Until then, you aren't qualified to discuss this subject matter.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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DeighAnn,

Part 2 of your question:

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (NO PART OF OUR EARTH BODY WILL GO TO HEAVEN) neither doth corruption inherit incorruption (OUR FLESH BODIES ARE CORRUPT BY PAUL'S DEFINITION. THEREFORE OUR FLESH BODIES CANNOT BE PART OF OUR SPIRITUAL INCORRUPT BODIES).
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (SLEEP = WAITING IN HADES), but we shall all be changed (DON'T HAVE TO WAIT IN HADES ANYMORE),
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (FREED FROM HADES, RESURRECTED OUT OF HADES AND REJOINED WITH GOD IN HEAVEN), and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death (SEPARATION FROM GOD) is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

As I mentioned before, you have to look at the whole passage. Please don't just cherry pick the portion, which on the surface, might support your view. Paul makes clear - You cannot be made alive (spiritual body) unless you first die physically.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(This totally contradicts what you think Paul is saying later about changing. More on that later. Paul is clear WE MUST ALL DIE BEFORE WE CAN GO TO HEAVEN).
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be (He's saying our current body has nothing to do with our future spiritual body, its mere grain), but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body
(after death) as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(Our brightness in Heaven is our reward. Just as Christ was glorified upon His re-entry to Heaven, so shall we be. Our works on earth determine our brightness or glory in heaven.)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(these are separate bodies. The natural is corrupt and cannot be a part of the spiritual body).
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (CHRIST) became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust
(physical, corrupt, of this earth); and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust
(Adam & Eve, human, physical), we shall also (after death) bear the image of the heavenly Man (Christ, God, Spiritual).

Since the first resurrection of the just occurred in 66-68 AD, there are no more resurrections for believers. We don't need to be resurrected when we die. The resurrection was NOT a coming back to this planet in any form. The resurrection was the escape from Hades and going to Heaven. It was a one-time event for believers. Since then when a believer dies, he/she immediately goes to heaven. Our spirit steps out of our dead flesh body in the spiritual realm and enters heaven and is glorified based on our works. The "change" Paul mentions is not a change whereby our flesh body coverts into a spiritual body. This is impossible because Paul already told us "what we sow is not made alive (spiritual) unless it dies." Therefore the change as I see it, is our spiritual self was reprogrammed or coded (as I call it) to go to Heaven instead of Hades.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Really thing about this. I hope it helps as you continue seeking the truth?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Nero was 6th. The 7th was Vespasian. The 8th was his son, Titus, who was of the 7th and the 7.

And I saw a beast (ROMAN EMPIRE) rising up out of the sea (GENTILE NATIONS), having seven heads (KINGS/CEASARS) and ten horns (LEADERS/GENERALS), and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name (The Caesars of Rome were often greeted and venerated with divine titles. Roman coins were imprinted with the head of the reigning emperor. Sometimes, as was the case with Augustus, these coins were imprinted with the title Divi F, that is Divi Filius or the Son of God. Caesar was also worshiped in temples of the imperial cult. Inscriptions found in Ephesus label Nero Caesar “Almighty God” and “Saviour” and another inscription found in Salamis gave him the title “God and Saviour). 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion (John borrowing from Daniel 7 stating that Rome would have all the elements of, and encompassing the territory of, the 3 previous world empires). The dragon (Satan) gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded (NERO who slabbed himself in the neck), and his deadly wound was healed (When Vespasian ended the civil war and restored order to the empire. The Julian-Claudio Dynasty died with Nero and the empire entered a year long brutal civil war. It was resurrected with the Flavian Dynasty under Vespasian in Dec 69 AD. At this time Vespasian ordered his son, Titus, to finish off the Jews). And all the (known) world (ROMAN EMPIRE) marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast (In 1 Corinthians 10:20, Paul asserts that sacrifices made to idols are considered offerings to demons. According to Revelation 13:4 and 1 Corinthians 10:20, the act of emperor worship is ultimately directed toward the devil, the presumed source of the emperor’s power.), saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

Indeed, who was able to make war with Rome of the 1st century? With wars in Gaul and Judea and civil war within, Rome seemed to be attacked on all sides. When Vespasian seized the throne all resistance was obliterated; and for a moment, Rome seemed invincible. At this time, Jerusalem fell. And Titus, the new general of the Jewish War, brought the Roman ensigns to the temple in Jerusalem and offered sacrifices to them.

If Titus was the 8'th he didn't become Caesar until after ad70 aren't you usually stating that all these things were fulfilled by ad70 why did you extend this into the future? Either way though someone was suppose to worship the image of the beast(ones your naming) and the Jews revolted/rebelled(1st Jewish revolt/ad66-70) so who is it that worshiped Nero,Vespasian,Titus ect. the Jews did not according to Josephus?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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The rapture is of the bride.

Completely separatee issue.
(biblically supported as pretrib...and easily defended)

Rev 14 has a gathering also...during the gt ...completely separate from the dynamics you brought forward.

But if that Israel is the head that received the wound and you honor it with you worship of God by supporting it and setting it back up in 1948 then will you be of the rapture or part of those in Revelation 19:21? Not that I mean this in disrespect but bare in mind that at some point Scriptural'y a lot of people are deceived and believe they are worshiping God when they are actually worshiping the MoS and line up to receive his mark thinking they are having the fathers name written in their foreheads.
 
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washburn Tn
Nope
It does not say that
I'm sorry but you need to open your eyes up to what it says .GOD BLESS . When a Man has believe something all their lives ,it is very hard for them to see anything else But what they have set their minds to believe , I know ,Iv'e been there .
 
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washburn Tn
FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE . I THINK THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO LOOK AT THIS IN A WAY THAT IT DON'T MAKE GOD A LIER . & I THING IT'S SAYING , THE WAY IT SAYS IT TO ME , IT COULD BE 900 YEARS LATER . GOD DON'T LIES , SO IF IT MAKES HIM A LIER ,THEN WE ARE LOOKING AT IT THE WRONG WAY , FOR GOD DOSE NOT LIE. god bless as HE sees fit
 
Apr 3, 2019
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What are your main issues with Preterism or what I call, In-Millennialism?
The millennium is past, consider this, after the "thousand" years John sees the new heaven and earth, he's stated that the whore, 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem has been destroyed.

(Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

After this John states:

(Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.)

If we look at Isaiah we see that the new heavens and earth are created after the slaying of apostate Israel:

(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)

(Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.)

If the new heaven(s) and earth that John sees is the same new heaven and earth of Isaiah then the millennium must have ended in the war around 70 AD with the slaying of apostate Israel aka the whore of Babylon and the creation of the new heaven and earth.
 
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The millennium is past, consider this, after the "thousand" years John sees the new heaven and earth, he's stated that the whore, 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem has been destroyed.

(Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

After this John states:

(Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.)

If we look at Isaiah we see that the new heavens and earth are created after the slaying of apostate Israel:

(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)

(Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.)

If the new heaven(s) and earth that John sees is the same new heaven and earth of Isaiah then the millennium must have ended in the war around 70 AD with the slaying of apostate Israel aka the whore of Babylon and the creation of the new heaven and earth.
The thousand years according to the signified language of Revelation represents an unknow called the last days or the day of the lord Jesus in Revelation 1 . It began when Christ said it is finished having done all the work nothing could prevent the old testament saints from entering. The time of reformation had come. It is the resurrection that will continue to do its work until the last day .

70 AD would be the witness of men. The witness of God which ended with the book of Revelation is the greater.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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(Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.)
:rolleyes:

We still have seas...

The new heaven and earth will be created only after sin has been totally done away with.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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We still have seas...
Are you expecting a dry planet?

The new heaven and earth will be created only after sin has been totally done away with.
That's not what Isaiah says:

(Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed)

The above is written after the creation of the new heavens and earth in Isaiah 65:17.

You need to understand that John and Isaiah are not speaking of a physical heaven and earth. The sea represented the nations (I saw a beast rise out of the sea John says in the Rev 13:1 - this was not the physical sea), the nations became Christ's when Israel was cast off as a (separated) nation in the 1st century conflagration. Thus the nations are no longer considered the sea, there is no separate special nation as in the days of old covenant Israel. We see this happen here:

(Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever)

If we look again to Isaiah we can see that God parted Israel from the sea (nations) when he gave them the law (my words) and said to them you are my people:

(Isa 51:15 But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.)

(Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.)

Isaiah said in the above that God planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth when he put His words in "thy mouth", these are the symbolic/representative heavens and earth that Peter was expecting soon to "melt" with fervent heat in the fire that fell on Jerusalem in the 66-70 AD war, not the planet or the physical universe.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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But if that Israel is the head that received the wound and you honor it with you worship of God by supporting it and setting it back up in 1948 then will you be of the rapture or part of those in Revelation 19:21? Not that I mean this in disrespect but bare in mind that at some point Scriptural'y a lot of people are deceived and believe they are worshiping God when they are actually worshiping the MoS and line up to receive his mark thinking they are having the fathers name written in their foreheads.
Nope
Israel is not the head that recieves a deadly wound.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I'm sorry but you need to open your eyes up to what it says .GOD BLESS . When a Man has believe something all their lives ,it is very hard for them to see anything else But what they have set their minds to believe , I know ,Iv'e been there .
Pot < > Kettle

You have not proven any point
 
Jul 23, 2018
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FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE . I THINK THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO LOOK AT THIS IN A WAY THAT IT DON'T MAKE GOD A LIER . & I THING IT'S SAYING , THE WAY IT SAYS IT TO ME , IT COULD BE 900 YEARS LATER . GOD DON'T LIES , SO IF IT MAKES HIM A LIER ,THEN WE ARE LOOKING AT IT THE WRONG WAY , FOR GOD DOSE NOT LIE. god bless as HE sees fit
Certain basics that are nearly totally omitted in the debate (the thread is "rapture" centered) reveal wheather one is close to being on target.

Without the bride,there is no main harvest (rapture)
 
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washburn Tn
Pot < > Kettle

You have not proven any point
I'm not going to try to prove nothing ; I can tell someone what that's all I can do , But I can not make them under stand or keep them from twisting it ,where it don't what they don't like . WHEN THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING , THAT SATTLES FOR ME . But one thing that GOD has showed is that when HIS word don't line up all the way through the BIBLE , It is because we are misunderstanding what it is saying.
The BIBLE explains it's self , & don't tell one thing in one place & another thing somewhere else . If we are not twisting it . GOD BE WITH YOU AS HE SEES FIT .
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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The millennium is past, consider this, after the "thousand" years John sees the new heaven and earth, he's stated that the whore, 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem has been destroyed.

(Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

After this John states:

(Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.)

If we look at Isaiah we see that the new heavens and earth are created after the slaying of apostate Israel:

(Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name)

(Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.)

If the new heaven(s) and earth that John sees is the same new heaven and earth of Isaiah then the millennium must have ended in the war around 70 AD with the slaying of apostate Israel aka the whore of Babylon and the creation of the new heaven and earth.
Welcome to the discussion.

Are you in the camp of the 40- year millennial Preterist? The first heaven (temple) and the first earth (Israel) had past away and the sea (Roman armies) had left and was no longer covering the land. I'm with you there. But Paul's tells us we are citizens of the Jerusalem above.

I agree the Isa 65 passage is about the 70 AD events. And I see the post 70 AD passages in Isa 65 as mirror passages to Rev 21-22. But I see them as the new kingdom age, the kingdom that came without observation. John sees it come but he's in the spirit. Mortals would not observe it's arrival. I'm of the camp that thinks we are in the millennium now but that a thousand years is an expression of a long period of time, thus it could be 2,000 years.

I see the Kingdom (Church) being increasingly surrounded by the evil in the world (Gog, Magog). As a history buff I can't think of a period of time since the utter and incredible wickedness of the Jewish nation in 70 AD that the whole world has been this immoral. Christianity had filled the earth in fulfillment of Dan 2 and the church ruled most of the known world for centuries. The influence of the church for the past 1,900+ years on the world has been unparalleled in history. But recently this has been changing, in our lifetimes, I'd argue. There's an OT passage (it escapes me now) that says something along the lines that when wicked seems good and good is bad, that judgment is coming. Look at us today. We've always lived in a lost world but killing babies is considered good, mutilating your body for gender identity reasons is good, if it feels good, do it mentality that permeates the liberal psyche has turned things upside down and the church does not speak out against it. How much more do we need to decline as a society before God acts?

I think our age ends when God sends fire down and wipes out our enemies. I have no idea what the next age will look like and I'm open to other ideas.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE . I THINK THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO LOOK AT THIS IN A WAY THAT IT DON'T MAKE GOD A LIER . & I THING IT'S SAYING , THE WAY IT SAYS IT TO ME , IT COULD BE 900 YEARS LATER . GOD DON'T LIES , SO IF IT MAKES HIM A LIER ,THEN WE ARE LOOKING AT IT THE WRONG WAY , FOR GOD DOSE NOT LIE. god bless as HE sees fit
There are two forms of life and death, physical and spiritual.

Spiritual life = present with the Lord
Spiritual Death = Absent from the Lord

From that day forth, Adam and Eve were apart from the Lord. This concept was taught early on when Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their own" (Mt 8:21, Lk 9:60). There is no other way of reading the Gen passage.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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If Titus was the 8'th he didn't become Caesar until after ad70 aren't you usually stating that all these things were fulfilled by ad70 why did you extend this into the future? Either way though someone was suppose to worship the image of the beast(ones your naming) and the Jews revolted/rebelled(1st Jewish revolt/ad66-70) so who is it that worshiped Nero,Vespasian,Titus ect. the Jews did not according to Josephus?
Great question!! Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were all declared Caesar at the same time in Dec 69 AD. They were the unholy Trinity. This was done to ensure a stable line of succession for the new Flavian Dynasty. When Titus broke through to the Temple, his solders bowed down, made sacrifices to him and worshiped him declaring him imperator.

Imperator ("commander"): Roman title, awarded to victorious commanders and emperors.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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:rolleyes:

We still have seas...

The new heaven and earth will be created only after sin has been totally done away with.
What passage(s) support this view Gary?

In this context:

heaven = temple
earth = Israel
sea = Roman armies

"And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns." (Rev 13:1)

You don't suppose a sea monster destroyed Israel, do you??? Since "sea" here represents Gentile nations outside Israel, in this case Rome, can't one assume it means the same thing 8 chapters later in Rev 21:1?
 
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washburn Tn
There are two forms of life and death, physical and spiritual.

Spiritual life = present with the Lord
Spiritual Death = Absent from the Lord

From that day forth, Adam and Eve were apart from the Lord. This concept was taught early on when Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their own" (Mt 8:21, Lk 9:60). There is no other way of reading the Gen passage.
To be dead is to be asleep in the ground , Till Jesus comes and waketh them op , When they wake up ,even if it's been a1000 years it will be as a blink of the eye ,