Apostasy 101
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You both believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. That isn't the issue. Where Judges1318 comes from is that there are very stern and dire warnings to believers to remain correctly on this path, whereas these warnings from your camp are watered down "nice to haves" but not all that important. So begin the word gymnastics.
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I would offer. Its more works as we believe and are moved to perform them. We should do so without murmuring.
Like for instance with the parable of the workers they all agreed on the same in regard a pennies worth = eternal life. But those who were blessed more as it seems wanted more recognition. Like in what they did have they earned it .And not that it was freely given by God who makes men different. Murmuring, what about this person or that . Rather than just do the works and as the better thing that accompanies salvation. God will not forget them kind of works offered toward his name as the power that does work in those to both will and do His good pleasure .
Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
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well, I did cover that in my remarks
I'm not calling people legalists who believe there are repercussion to continuing in sin or starting to sin again etc
I also have doubt that every person who 'walks away' (popular term around here) was never saved to begin with
James talks about restoration in his remarks, and again, I would not flip that and state well they were believers and needed help
I have never stated that works are required to be saved, however, and I think most here will agree, that a believer will begin to exhibit the works the Bible mentions and that will include sanctification...which is NOT a work, but the process of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer
I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand
from the perspective of you stance (and others), you would do well to recognize that most who believe salvation can be lost, are not saying the works keep or earn salvation
that would be a stretch and a process, but it would clear up the spaghetti noodle arguments so abundant here...meaning you can't see the end or the beginning of said spaghetti noodle tangle
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Quite annoying isn't it?
Well said!
Well said!
see my post above this one for my spaghetti metaphor
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well I thought so, but wanted to make sure
so a nominal Christian to you is someone wearing a name tag without actually practicing what that name tag means
I would not state people who confuse works with salvation are nominal though. quite the opposite
if a person actually does believe works earns or keeps salvation, that would make them conceptually ignorant of the gospel
however, I would disagree that some of the people accused of that, are ignorant
I have no intentions of entering into the fray though because it is a no win no win situation round these parts
I'm just being curious and trying to understand better
the Bible does state we are created to do good works though. but also true it does not say they will save you, but after salvation they should become evident
at least according to James
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well, I did cover that in my remarks
I'm not calling people legalists who believe there are repercussion to continuing in sin or starting to sin again etc
I also have doubt that every person who 'walks away' (popular term around here) was never saved to begin with
James talks about restoration in his remarks, and again, I would not flip that and state well they were believers and needed help
I have never stated that works are required to be saved, however, and I think most here will agree, that a believer will begin to exhibit the works the Bible mentions and that will include sanctification...which is NOT a work, but the process of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer
I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand
from the perspective of you stance (and others), you would do well to recognize that most who believe salvation can be lost, are not saying the works keep or earn salvation
that would be a stretch and a process, but it would clear up the spaghetti noodle arguments so abundant here...meaning you can't see the end or the beginning of said spaghetti noodle tangle
I'm not calling people legalists who believe there are repercussion to continuing in sin or starting to sin again etc
I also have doubt that every person who 'walks away' (popular term around here) was never saved to begin with
James talks about restoration in his remarks, and again, I would not flip that and state well they were believers and needed help
I have never stated that works are required to be saved, however, and I think most here will agree, that a believer will begin to exhibit the works the Bible mentions and that will include sanctification...which is NOT a work, but the process of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer
I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand
from the perspective of you stance (and others), you would do well to recognize that most who believe salvation can be lost, are not saying the works keep or earn salvation
that would be a stretch and a process, but it would clear up the spaghetti noodle arguments so abundant here...meaning you can't see the end or the beginning of said spaghetti noodle tangle
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Answer: Doesn't mean what it says.
Virtually all osas doctrine requires plain scripture to not really mean what it says.
And I know why.
In osas, scripture has to be made to fit it's misunderstanding of election.
Instead of understanding election for what it actually is, osas twists scripture to accommodate it's misunderstanding of election.
At least that's the beginning of the problem.
Not if you understand that 'justify' has more than one definition.
But we don't know that because the word is not used in everyday language anymore in our time.
Yet, any dictionary will confirm this.
And, the problem is compounded by the fact that the church loves to focus in on Paul's justification by faith, not James' justification by works (for obvious reasons).
Both are legit, though.
And can be easily reconciled. As you know (I think).
I agree.
The problem is, forcing many plain scriptures to adapt to the misunderstanding of one or two single scriptures that have been lifted out of context is not properly harmonizing scripture.
Virtually all osas doctrine requires plain scripture to not really mean what it says.
And I know why.
In osas, scripture has to be made to fit it's misunderstanding of election.
Instead of understanding election for what it actually is, osas twists scripture to accommodate it's misunderstanding of election.
At least that's the beginning of the problem.
Not if you understand that 'justify' has more than one definition.
But we don't know that because the word is not used in everyday language anymore in our time.
Yet, any dictionary will confirm this.
And, the problem is compounded by the fact that the church loves to focus in on Paul's justification by faith, not James' justification by works (for obvious reasons).
Both are legit, though.
And can be easily reconciled. As you know (I think).
I agree.
The problem is, forcing many plain scriptures to adapt to the misunderstanding of one or two single scriptures that have been lifted out of context is not properly harmonizing scripture.
Why would you say this knowing that I firmly believe that salvation is through faith in Jesus, not by the merit of righteous works accomplished?
Don't you see the massive, massive error you are making?
You are equating not believing in OSAS with thinking salvation is by works.
It doesn't have to be that way.
I've been stressing to you that I'm not OSAS, and, I do even remotely suggest or imply salvation is by works.
I'm on the narrow strip of truth in between the two.
That is usually where you find truth--between the extremes of human reasoning.
We humans tend to gravitate to the extremes. It's a peculiar, and annoying, characteristic of humans.
Don't look for truth in the extremes of popular human reasoning.
It probably isn't there.
Don't you see the massive, massive error you are making?
You are equating not believing in OSAS with thinking salvation is by works.
It doesn't have to be that way.
I've been stressing to you that I'm not OSAS, and, I do even remotely suggest or imply salvation is by works.
I'm on the narrow strip of truth in between the two.
That is usually where you find truth--between the extremes of human reasoning.
We humans tend to gravitate to the extremes. It's a peculiar, and annoying, characteristic of humans.
Don't look for truth in the extremes of popular human reasoning.
It probably isn't there.
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Do you find anywhere in there where it contradicts the statement that the Gift of Salvation is without Repentance?
Paul would not have explicitly stated that Salvation is the Gift of God if he thought it could be revoked.
But people, who think that Salvation is earned and then if it is not worked for it is lost, see all kinds of ways to lose this gift that cannot be revoked. Even when shown simple definitive scriptures that refute their position. Or even worse, pit scripture against scripture causing it to contradict itself.
There's another scripture about the blotting out of names from the book of life that people have used to try and show that salvation can be lost.
But nowhere in scripture does it ever show that someone was definitely saved and then later on became unsaved. That is totally in the imagination of the reader and against Faith in God. I should say once was lost, then saved, then lost again.
Paul would not have explicitly stated that Salvation is the Gift of God if he thought it could be revoked.
But people, who think that Salvation is earned and then if it is not worked for it is lost, see all kinds of ways to lose this gift that cannot be revoked. Even when shown simple definitive scriptures that refute their position. Or even worse, pit scripture against scripture causing it to contradict itself.
There's another scripture about the blotting out of names from the book of life that people have used to try and show that salvation can be lost.
But nowhere in scripture does it ever show that someone was definitely saved and then later on became unsaved. That is totally in the imagination of the reader and against Faith in God. I should say once was lost, then saved, then lost again.
For some dumb reason, we humans can only see value in what another person says if they agree completely on all points with us. That causes us stupid humans to always gravitate to the extremes and remain divided from each other. Which is sad, because all of us have a piece of the truth and if we would just put our pieces together we'd arrive at the truth nestled in between all these inane doctrines in the church.
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Answer: Doesn't mean what you want it to say.
I hear your same argument from those who teach baptismal regeneration. They will cite such verses as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21 etc.. and argue these verses teach that whoever is not baptized will be condemned/water baptism is the cause of receiving the remission of sins/water baptism literally saves. After I explain these verses to works-salvationists (by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture) they will then accuse me of twisting those scripture/using gymnastics etc.. to get around the clear meaning. I have not heard you use these verses to teach salvation by water baptism. So do you side with works-salvationists on these verses? Doesn't mean what it says?
Exactly! The word "justify" has more than one definition.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Yet works-salvationists insist on giving the word "justify" a broad brushed definition of "saved" in order to accommodate their biased doctrine of salvation by faith + works.
Works-salvationists and those in the NOSAS camp are good at doing just that.
I hear your same argument from those who teach baptismal regeneration. They will cite such verses as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21 etc.. and argue these verses teach that whoever is not baptized will be condemned/water baptism is the cause of receiving the remission of sins/water baptism literally saves. After I explain these verses to works-salvationists (by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture) they will then accuse me of twisting those scripture/using gymnastics etc.. to get around the clear meaning. I have not heard you use these verses to teach salvation by water baptism. So do you side with works-salvationists on these verses? Doesn't mean what it says?
Exactly! The word "justify" has more than one definition.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Yet works-salvationists insist on giving the word "justify" a broad brushed definition of "saved" in order to accommodate their biased doctrine of salvation by faith + works.
Works-salvationists and those in the NOSAS camp are good at doing just that.