Apostasy 101

[Chris1975]

John 10":27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
-The Sheep follow Him (which includes obedience. If you are not obedient you are actually a Goat. And God does that separation. How do you know if you are a sheep or a goat? BY your fruit, works and obedience.
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
-Except if you reject Him. You are the only one that can cause your own apostasy. If you become apostate you were always a Goat.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
-Except if you reject Him. You are the only one that can cause your own apostasy. If you become apostate you were always a Goat.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
This is how: Note that these two scriptures are in the SAME CHAPTER. What happenes between these two scriptures? THe people forsake HIM and BREAK COVENANT.
Deuteronomy 31v8 And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”
Deuteronomy 31v17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be [c]devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And we can see what happens in Hebrews 6v4-6 to those who abuse this gift.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Applies to corporate Israel. Covered that already in its own thread.

 

[Chris1975]

Strongly opposing OSAS is not the narrow path. Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone is the narrow path.

You both believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. That isn't the issue. Where Judges1318 comes from is that there are very stern and dire warnings to believers to remain correctly on this path, whereas these warnings from your camp are watered down "nice to haves" but not all that important. So begin the word gymnastics.

 

[mailmandan]

You both believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. That isn't the issue. Where Judges1318 comes from is that there are very stern and dire warnings to believers to remain correctly on this path, whereas these warnings from your camp are watered down "nice to haves" but not all that important. So begin the word gymnastics.

After reading those passages of scripture in context, it’s inconclusion that they teach a really saved person really lost her salvation, so we continue to remain in disagreement.

 

[Chris1975]

After reading those passages of scripture in context, it’s inconclusion that they teach a really saved person really lost her salvation, so we continue to remain in disagreement.

And if you think about it, why would there be ANY warnings to believers if nothing can come of those warnings?

 

[mailmandan]

And if you think about it, why would there be ANY warnings to believers if nothing can come of those warnings?

You can find warnings to believers in scripture, yet warnings also apply to “nominal” Christians who are not hard to find mixed in with genuine Christians. Why do warnings always have to be about a loss of salvation for genuine believers with you? Why are you so obsessed with that topic?

 

[garee]

So which camp you lie in, when it comes to achieving C? Works after believing, or Believe + Works?

I would offer. Its more works as we believe and are moved to perform them. We should do so without murmuring.

Like for instance with the parable of the workers they all agreed on the same in regard a pennies worth = eternal life. But those who were blessed more as it seems wanted more recognition. Like in what they did have they earned it .And not that it was freely given by God who makes men different. Murmuring, what about this person or that . Rather than just do the works and as the better thing that accompanies salvation. God will not forget them kind of works offered toward his name as the power that does work in those to both will and do His good pleasure .

Philippians 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The only time you would be accused of the thought of "working for your salvation" is when you attempt to show that salvation can be lost by something you do or don't do (work).

It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).


The weirdest thing is when a legalist says salvation is by faith but here are the hundreds of ways you can lose that salvation and here is how you have to work at those requirements to maintain that salvation. But salvation is not about works!!!!????? How can it not be about works if there are so many requirements that must be met in order to not lose salvation?


Just because someone states something over and over doesn't mean they have any understanding of what they are saying.

well, I did cover that in my remarks

I'm not calling people legalists who believe there are repercussion to continuing in sin or starting to sin again etc

I also have doubt that every person who 'walks away' (popular term around here) was never saved to begin with

James talks about restoration in his remarks, and again, I would not flip that and state well they were believers and needed help

I have never stated that works are required to be saved, however, and I think most here will agree, that a believer will begin to exhibit the works the Bible mentions and that will include sanctification...which is NOT a work, but the process of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer

I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand

It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).

from the perspective of you stance (and others), you would do well to recognize that most who believe salvation can be lost, are not saying the works keep or earn salvation

that would be a stretch and a process, but it would clear up the spaghetti noodle arguments so abundant here...meaning you can't see the end or the beginning of said spaghetti noodle tangle

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You can find warnings to believers in scripture, yet warnings also apply to “nominal” Christians who are not hard to find mixed in with genuine Christians. Why do warnings always have to be about a loss of salvation for genuine believers with you? Why are you so obsessed with that topic?

hmmmm

I am wondering how you see 'nominal' Christians and 'genuine' Christians

if a person is a Christian, they are a Christian

the struggle is real

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Quite annoying isn't it?

Well said!

uh huh...for me I see that as exasperating

see my post above this one for my spaghetti metaphor

 

[mailmandan]

hmmmm

I am wondering how you see 'nominal' Christians and 'genuine' Christians

if a person is a Christian, they are a Christian

the struggle is real

What I mean by someone who is a “nominal” Christian is someone who is a Christian (in name only) but not actually. People who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and trust in works for salvation. Religious, but not right with God.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What I mean by someone who is a “nominal” Christian is someone who is a Christian (in name only) but not actually. People who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and trust in works for salvation. Religious, but not right with God.

well I thought so, but wanted to make sure

so a nominal Christian to you is someone wearing a name tag without actually practicing what that name tag means

I would not state people who confuse works with salvation are nominal though. quite the opposite

if a person actually does believe works earns or keeps salvation, that would make them conceptually ignorant of the gospel

however, I would disagree that some of the people accused of that, are ignorant

I have no intentions of entering into the fray though because it is a no win no win situation round these parts

I'm just being curious and trying to understand better

the Bible does state we are created to do good works though. but also true it does not say they will save you, but after salvation they should become evident

at least according to James

 

[Aerials1978]

well, I did cover that in my remarks

I'm not calling people legalists who believe there are repercussion to continuing in sin or starting to sin again etc

I also have doubt that every person who 'walks away' (popular term around here) was never saved to begin with

James talks about restoration in his remarks, and again, I would not flip that and state well they were believers and needed help

I have never stated that works are required to be saved, however, and I think most here will agree, that a believer will begin to exhibit the works the Bible mentions and that will include sanctification...which is NOT a work, but the process of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer

I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand



from the perspective of you stance (and others), you would do well to recognize that most who believe salvation can be lost, are not saying the works keep or earn salvation

that would be a stretch and a process, but it would clear up the spaghetti noodle arguments so abundant here...meaning you can't see the end or the beginning of said spaghetti noodle tangle

I completely agree. Deeds done by a Believer not only brings honor to the Lord, but it shows those who are not in the Lord the glory of Him. That’s why I take issue with people whom only like to preach the Gospel, but never actually walk it. What does that show those to whom are being witnessing to. In fact, there is no witnesses at all because that person does not see the personified actions. It’s really not a hard concept that God has asked us to do. Repent, receive His salvation by grace, and love and do for your fellow human beings who were created in God’s image.

 

[Judges1318]

Doesn’t mean what it says or “on the surface” only appears to support NOSAS?

Answer: Doesn't mean what it says.
Virtually all osas doctrine requires plain scripture to not really mean what it says.
And I know why.
In osas, scripture has to be made to fit it's misunderstanding of election.
Instead of understanding election for what it actually is, osas twists scripture to accommodate it's misunderstanding of election.
At least that's the beginning of the problem.

On the surface, James 2:24 appears to support salvation by works, yet that would contradict what Paul said in Romans 4:2-3.

Not if you understand that 'justify' has more than one definition.
But we don't know that because the word is not used in everyday language anymore in our time.
Yet, any dictionary will confirm this.
And, the problem is compounded by the fact that the church loves to focus in on Paul's justification by faith, not James' justification by works (for obvious reasons).
Both are legit, though.
And can be easily reconciled. As you know (I think).

We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

I agree.
The problem is, forcing many plain scriptures to adapt to the misunderstanding of one or two single scriptures that have been lifted out of context is not properly harmonizing scripture.

 

[Judges1318]

Strongly opposing OSAS is not the narrow path. Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone is the narrow path.

Why would you say this knowing that I firmly believe that salvation is through faith in Jesus, not by the merit of righteous works accomplished?

Don't you see the massive, massive error you are making?
You are equating not believing in OSAS with thinking salvation is by works.
It doesn't have to be that way.
I've been stressing to you that I'm not OSAS, and, I do even remotely suggest or imply salvation is by works.
I'm on the narrow strip of truth in between the two.
That is usually where you find truth--between the extremes of human reasoning.
We humans tend to gravitate to the extremes. It's a peculiar, and annoying, characteristic of humans.
Don't look for truth in the extremes of popular human reasoning.
It probably isn't there.

 

[Grandpa]

What does God keeping his promise about Israel, even though they have rejected Him and have been dying and going to hell for centuries, have to do with believers not being able to lose the gift of God?

We know Paul isn't saying believers can't lose the gift of salvation by this:

23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold h was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Matthew 18:23-35.

Do you find anywhere in there where it contradicts the statement that the Gift of Salvation is without Repentance?

Paul would not have explicitly stated that Salvation is the Gift of God if he thought it could be revoked.


But people, who think that Salvation is earned and then if it is not worked for it is lost, see all kinds of ways to lose this gift that cannot be revoked. Even when shown simple definitive scriptures that refute their position. Or even worse, pit scripture against scripture causing it to contradict itself.

There's another scripture about the blotting out of names from the book of life that people have used to try and show that salvation can be lost.

But nowhere in scripture does it ever show that someone was definitely saved and then later on became unsaved. That is totally in the imagination of the reader and against Faith in God. I should say once was lost, then saved, then lost again.

 

[Judges1318]

The only time you would be accused of the thought of "working for your salvation" is when you attempt to show that salvation can be lost by something you do or don't do (work).

So then even according to your own reasoning, salvation can be lost by no longer believing in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Applies to corporate Israel. Covered that already in its own thread.

SO only the physical country of Israel is given Eternal Life by the Lord Jesus Christ?

How can you state such silliness as if it were fact? Doesn't it embarrass you?

 

[Judges1318]

I have seen on numerous occasions that each side will talk past each other without taking the time to try to really understand

For some dumb reason, we humans can only see value in what another person says if they agree completely on all points with us. That causes us stupid humans to always gravitate to the extremes and remain divided from each other. Which is sad, because all of us have a piece of the truth and if we would just put our pieces together we'd arrive at the truth nestled in between all these inane doctrines in the church.

 

[Chris1975]

SO only the physical country of Israel is given Eternal Life by the Lord Jesus Christ?

How can you state such silliness as if it were fact? Doesn't it embarrass you?

Lol. Try reading it.

 

[mailmandan]

Answer: Doesn't mean what it says.
Virtually all osas doctrine requires plain scripture to not really mean what it says.
And I know why.
In osas, scripture has to be made to fit it's misunderstanding of election.
Instead of understanding election for what it actually is, osas twists scripture to accommodate it's misunderstanding of election.
At least that's the beginning of the problem.

Answer: Doesn't mean what you want it to say.

I hear your same argument from those who teach baptismal regeneration. They will cite such verses as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21 etc.. and argue these verses teach that whoever is not baptized will be condemned/water baptism is the cause of receiving the remission of sins/water baptism literally saves. After I explain these verses to works-salvationists (by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture) they will then accuse me of twisting those scripture/using gymnastics etc.. to get around the clear meaning. I have not heard you use these verses to teach salvation by water baptism. So do you side with works-salvationists on these verses? Doesn't mean what it says?

Not if you understand that 'justify' has more than one definition.
But we don't know that because the word is not used in everyday language anymore in our time.
Yet, any dictionary will confirm this.
And, the problem is compounded by the fact that the church loves to focus in on Paul's justification by faith, not James' justification by works (for obvious reasons).
Both are legit, though.
And can be easily reconciled. As you know (I think).

Exactly! The word "justify" has more than one definition.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Yet works-salvationists insist on giving the word "justify" a broad brushed definition of "saved" in order to accommodate their biased doctrine of salvation by faith + works.

I agree.
The problem is, forcing many plain scriptures to adapt to the misunderstanding of one or two single scriptures that have been lifted out of context is not properly harmonizing scripture.

Works-salvationists and those in the NOSAS camp are good at doing just that.