Apostasy 101
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I can only attest to what was done for me. The power of God through His salvation first brought to my faith. As my faith began to grow so did my desire to honor Him by how I conduct my daily life. I still fall very short to my dismay. However, I do have more compassion for my fellow man. I just hope and pray that when people encounter me, they don’t just see a “Nice Guy” but see the spirit of truth. I want them to see Jesus. What’s works mean to me.
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The only time you would be accused of the thought of "working for your salvation" is when you attempt to show that salvation can be lost by something you do or don't do (work).
It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).
The weirdest thing is when a legalist says salvation is by faith but here are the hundreds of ways you can lose that salvation and here is how you have to work at those requirements to maintain that salvation. But salvation is not about works!!!!????? How can it not be about works if there are so many requirements that must be met in order to not lose salvation?
Just because someone states something over and over doesn't mean they have any understanding of what they are saying.
It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).
The weirdest thing is when a legalist says salvation is by faith but here are the hundreds of ways you can lose that salvation and here is how you have to work at those requirements to maintain that salvation. But salvation is not about works!!!!????? How can it not be about works if there are so many requirements that must be met in order to not lose salvation?
Just because someone states something over and over doesn't mean they have any understanding of what they are saying.
I've been in numerous conversations with multiple people over the years on various Christian forums who ALL claim they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form, but then turn around and teach we are initially saved through faith, but ultimately our salvation is maintained by works (some even teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection). Yet others teach that we are saved through "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) and still others (misguided teachers of the law) teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
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I've been in numerous conversations with multiple people over the years on various Christian forums who ALL claim they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form, but then turn around and teach we are initially saved through faith, but ultimately our salvation is maintained by works (some even teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection). Yet others teach that we are saved through "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) and still others (misguided teachers of the law) teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Faith and rebirth creates change and action. How do we describe this separate from works to prove worthiness?
You can end up denying change is actually part of being in Jesus, but then we are the world, doomed to judgement.
If we love Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, then our lives will demonstrate it.
Phil 2:14-16
Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
I've been in numerous conversations with multiple people over the years on various Christian forums who ALL claim they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form, but then turn around and teach we are initially saved through faith, but ultimately our salvation is maintained by works (some even teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection). Yet others teach that we are saved through "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) and still others (misguided teachers of the law) teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.
What can be lost is an intellectual theory of the possibility of someday there being some sort of Salvation that may (or may not be) possible.
But actual Salvation cannot be lost. Because Actual Salvation is not a product of what we earn. Actual Salvation is a gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. (NIV)
Do you know what irrevocable means? It means not able to be changed or reversed. Final.
I find myself pronouncing this word both ways. Irr revokibul and Ir Revoke Able. The second one is probably easier for everyone to understand. Because most people know what revoke is.
And then there is the actual Word (as opposed to opinion).
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
The actual Word of God, which is plain and straightforward to understand, carries more weight than mere opinion or assertion.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
The actual Word of God, which is plain and straightforward to understand, carries more weight than mere opinion or assertion.
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John 10":27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
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What does God keeping his promise about Israel, even though they have rejected Him and have been dying and going to hell for centuries, have to do with believers not being able to lose the gift of God?
We know Paul isn't saying believers can't lose the gift of salvation by this:
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold h was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Matthew 18:23-35.
We know Paul isn't saying believers can't lose the gift of salvation by this:
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold h was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. i He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Matthew 18:23-35.
You know that I in no way believe that salvation is earned or kept on the merit of works, so no reason to go there with me. So, don't go there when I say this: The red flag in OSAS is that the Bible really doesn't mean what it says. Over and over and over and over again, it doesn't really mean what it says in osas doctrine. Quite eye opening when one realizes the extent to which that is true about osas.
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You know that I in no way believe that salvation is earned or kept on the merit of works, so no reason to go there with me. So, don't go there when I say this: The red flag in OSAS is that the Bible really doesn't mean what it says. Over and over and over and over again, it doesn't really mean what it says in osas doctrine. Quite eye opening when one realizes the extent to which that is true about osas.