Does God Use Suffering to Conform the Believer to the Image of Christ?
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Do you think that you are Jesus?
I'm not sure why you think we should suffer in exactly the same way Jesus did. I will likely never die on a cross, for example.
Here's the logic you seem to employ.
1. Jesus never suffered illness.
2. Believers are to suffer as part of their sanctification.
3. Therefore, believers will never suffer illness.
The problem is, believers suffer as part of their sanctification, but they don't need to suffer exactly like Jesus did.
And, many believers were burned alive, not compromising their faith in hope of a better resurrection. That doesn't mean that they didn't participate in the suffering involved in sanctification because Jesus wasn't burned alive.
So, I don't really understand your point. I would read Hebrews 11 and see the vast variety of ways true believers manifested faith through suffering and enduring as though seeing the unseen eternal reward.
I'm not sure why you think we should suffer in exactly the same way Jesus did. I will likely never die on a cross, for example.
Here's the logic you seem to employ.
1. Jesus never suffered illness.
2. Believers are to suffer as part of their sanctification.
3. Therefore, believers will never suffer illness.
The problem is, believers suffer as part of their sanctification, but they don't need to suffer exactly like Jesus did.
And, many believers were burned alive, not compromising their faith in hope of a better resurrection. That doesn't mean that they didn't participate in the suffering involved in sanctification because Jesus wasn't burned alive.
So, I don't really understand your point. I would read Hebrews 11 and see the vast variety of ways true believers manifested faith through suffering and enduring as though seeing the unseen eternal reward.
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In a sense, it is true that true believers are healed. They are healed right now in terms of sin, but there is a future fulfillment of that at the appearing of Christ in the resurrection.
In the meantime, though, they suffer the realities of this world and it is not a mere illusion. It turns their heart toward God and the ultimate deliverance at the consummation.
In the meantime, though, they suffer the realities of this world and it is not a mere illusion. It turns their heart toward God and the ultimate deliverance at the consummation.
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Where do you think the egg came from?
Do you think Jesus just teleported into her body or something?
By the way, Roman Catholics believe Jesus teleported out of her womb, because they claim she remained "intact" after the birth.
Of course, they wouldn't use the language of "teleport" but that's what they mean.
Anyways, denying the true humanity of Jesus is a false teaching. Jesus was Mary's biological son.
I'm not even sure I've met anyone who would challenge that.
Do you think Jesus just teleported into her body or something?
By the way, Roman Catholics believe Jesus teleported out of her womb, because they claim she remained "intact" after the birth.
Of course, they wouldn't use the language of "teleport" but that's what they mean.
Anyways, denying the true humanity of Jesus is a false teaching. Jesus was Mary's biological son.
I'm not even sure I've met anyone who would challenge that.
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How do you explain sick and poor Christians?
The answer is: it's their fault.
WOFers and others won't say that, but it's the truth.
The ignorant man I followed as a young person said something similar. He used the analogy of bringing cheese and crackers on a cruise ship, and eating them in the room, to save money. The traveler didn't realize that the vast buffet was available in the dining room for free. In a similar way, in his theology, sickness was included but those who don't receive it are either too ignorant or lack faith to believe it is there. That is why they remain sick.
Well, a simple reading of the NT displays that sickness and poverty are things that Christians suffer. There is a parable called Lazarus and the Rich Man. Lazarus was a beggar covered with sores that the dogs licked. The rich man had a lot of wealth. Both died, and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom (place of blessing) and the rich man went to Hades, suffering the fire.
Now, in your theology, you would claim Lazarus should not have suffered sores, or suffered poverty.
This is just one parable. If someone reads the NT, they will see that the righteous suffered from many things besides persecution, including poverty and bad health. Read Hebrews 11.
The answer is: it's their fault.
WOFers and others won't say that, but it's the truth.
The ignorant man I followed as a young person said something similar. He used the analogy of bringing cheese and crackers on a cruise ship, and eating them in the room, to save money. The traveler didn't realize that the vast buffet was available in the dining room for free. In a similar way, in his theology, sickness was included but those who don't receive it are either too ignorant or lack faith to believe it is there. That is why they remain sick.
Well, a simple reading of the NT displays that sickness and poverty are things that Christians suffer. There is a parable called Lazarus and the Rich Man. Lazarus was a beggar covered with sores that the dogs licked. The rich man had a lot of wealth. Both died, and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom (place of blessing) and the rich man went to Hades, suffering the fire.
Now, in your theology, you would claim Lazarus should not have suffered sores, or suffered poverty.
This is just one parable. If someone reads the NT, they will see that the righteous suffered from many things besides persecution, including poverty and bad health. Read Hebrews 11.
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God certainly has a plan... fully thought out for each one of us....
He has laid many opportunites in front of us as well and has known before we could breathe what would cause us to stumble....
A lot of times our choices and the choices of others who are less than perfect can really cause pain... even if we/they didn't intend for that to happen....
God however is so mighty and wonderful He can use these things that hurt as valuble lessons for those that love Him and work all things ultimately for good...
We should thank Him for that and not point our finger at Him if we are suffering but reach out our hand or call out and ask what He wants us to see or ask Him how to make it through or what can be learned from this....
He has laid many opportunites in front of us as well and has known before we could breathe what would cause us to stumble....
A lot of times our choices and the choices of others who are less than perfect can really cause pain... even if we/they didn't intend for that to happen....
God however is so mighty and wonderful He can use these things that hurt as valuble lessons for those that love Him and work all things ultimately for good...
We should thank Him for that and not point our finger at Him if we are suffering but reach out our hand or call out and ask what He wants us to see or ask Him how to make it through or what can be learned from this....
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Should I post the hundreds of scriptures where the seed is of man? Never a woman in Scripture. Just a few to start...
And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Genesis 12:7
And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:16
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Genesis 15:3
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seedbe.
Genesis 15:13
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 15:18
In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Genesis 16:10
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Genesis 17:9
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Genesis 17:10
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Genesis 19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Genesis 19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Genesis 12:7
And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:16
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Genesis 15:3
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seedbe.
Genesis 15:13
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 15:18
In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Genesis 16:10
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Genesis 17:9
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Genesis 17:10
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Genesis 19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Genesis 19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So, you really think that Jesus was not truly human?
I really can't believe you would twist Scriptures to try to prove that.
1. Mary's body produced the ovum, which is a natural part of reproduction, but this in itself is caused by God and he is actively involved
in all biological processes.
2. God caused her to be impregnated and this impregnation was the Word.
3. Jesus was fully human as this was a requirement for him to be a perfect substitute for all humanity.
I don't know how it could be any plainer. To deny the full humanity of Jesus is heretical. He was not contaminated with the sinfulness of earthly men because he did not inherit it from Adam. This is passed down through the man, not the woman.
I really can't believe you would twist Scriptures to try to prove that.
1. Mary's body produced the ovum, which is a natural part of reproduction, but this in itself is caused by God and he is actively involved
in all biological processes.
2. God caused her to be impregnated and this impregnation was the Word.
3. Jesus was fully human as this was a requirement for him to be a perfect substitute for all humanity.
I don't know how it could be any plainer. To deny the full humanity of Jesus is heretical. He was not contaminated with the sinfulness of earthly men because he did not inherit it from Adam. This is passed down through the man, not the woman.
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Those mean nothing. Gen 3:15 uses the phrase "seed of the woman".
This points to a unique being.
Jesus was the seed of the woman, and not the seed of a man.
There is a uniqueness being expressed. Jesus was uniquely born without two parents.
As I said, I can't believe you are saying this. It's like questioning a basic teaching of the Bible.
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This is the NIV:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
The word "offspring" in both cases is the "seed". This is the KJV:
Gen 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The "seed of the woman" is significant in that it implies a man was not used to create this offspring.
Every basic bible student knows this is the first preaching of the Gospel.
Jesus, the seed of the woman, will crush the head of the snake, who is Satan.
The enemies of God, especially Satan, will be defeated by the seed of the woman, who is Jesus.
Those who are in union with him also defeat Satan, because Romans 16: 20 indicates that the God of peace will crush Satan under their feet.
So, the followers of Jesus are also seed of the woman, because they are united with Christ and identify with him. They are one.
Anyways, I am not sure what is to be gained from this, other than to show others the incoherent nature of your words.
Anyone who denies the full deity and full humanity of Christ believes in a Christ I don't believe in. It's actually the fundamental problem with most heresies in the early church...folks denied that Jesus was fully God, or then denied that he was fully man.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
The word "offspring" in both cases is the "seed". This is the KJV:
Gen 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The "seed of the woman" is significant in that it implies a man was not used to create this offspring.
Every basic bible student knows this is the first preaching of the Gospel.
Jesus, the seed of the woman, will crush the head of the snake, who is Satan.
The enemies of God, especially Satan, will be defeated by the seed of the woman, who is Jesus.
Those who are in union with him also defeat Satan, because Romans 16: 20 indicates that the God of peace will crush Satan under their feet.
So, the followers of Jesus are also seed of the woman, because they are united with Christ and identify with him. They are one.
Anyways, I am not sure what is to be gained from this, other than to show others the incoherent nature of your words.
Anyone who denies the full deity and full humanity of Christ believes in a Christ I don't believe in. It's actually the fundamental problem with most heresies in the early church...folks denied that Jesus was fully God, or then denied that he was fully man.
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Well, see, here's another issue..
Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He existed as the son of God prior to the incarnation.
This is called eternal sonship.
The opposite belief is incarnational Sonship.
Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He has always existed, but he was eternally begotten.
The phrase "eternal procession" is used in relation to the Spirit. The Spirit eternally proceeded from the Father and the Son.
None of this language should imply that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have not always existed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed, but the Son was begotten and the Spirit proceeded.
I bring this up because some cults teach that the Son was begotten at the Incarnation, and not eternally begotten. Again, I point to the fact that the Scriptures teach that God sent his Son....not some being who was not his Son.
I don't want to spend hours debating this topic either though. I need to do productive things this morning.
Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He existed as the son of God prior to the incarnation.
This is called eternal sonship.
The opposite belief is incarnational Sonship.
Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father. He has always existed, but he was eternally begotten.
The phrase "eternal procession" is used in relation to the Spirit. The Spirit eternally proceeded from the Father and the Son.
None of this language should imply that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have not always existed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed, but the Son was begotten and the Spirit proceeded.
I bring this up because some cults teach that the Son was begotten at the Incarnation, and not eternally begotten. Again, I point to the fact that the Scriptures teach that God sent his Son....not some being who was not his Son.
I don't want to spend hours debating this topic either though. I need to do productive things this morning.
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