Does God Use Suffering to Conform the Believer to the Image of Christ?

[JohnR7]

But did Jesus suffer any diseases?

""He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases." (Matthew 8:17)

Was he ever sick during the 4 gospels?

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin" (Hebrews4:15)

 

[Guojing]

""He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases." (Matthew 8:17)

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin" (Hebrews4:15)

Yes, he certainly took it at the cross. He bore it then so that we won't have to, aka the divine exchange.

But are you actually saying you believe he was ever down with a flu, a fever, before that?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

But did Jesus suffer any diseases? Was he ever sick during the 4 gospels?

Jesus was the seed of the woman so he was not susceptible to the effects of the Fall. Even if he was, you are arguing from silence.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus was the seed of the woman so he was not susceptible to the effects of the Fall. Even if he was, you are arguing from silence.

You cannot tell I am arguing that he was in perfect health throughout?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, my point was that, almost all churches teach us that because the Word of God say we are saved, we take the Word as it is.

We believe the word that says we are saved, even if there is no "proof" that we are.

It should be likewise for healing.

Are you Christian Science? Do you believe that sickness is an illusion? Seems like that is what your claim would lead to,

By the way there is an “already but not yet” aspect to salvation. Believers are saved, yet they will be saved. Their ultimate salvation awaits the consummation at the return of Christ.

If you want to apply that to healing then I agree all are healed physically at the resurrection. That doesn’t mean there’s any guarantee of physical healing before the consummation.

All we really have to do with s look at the myriads of paralyzed individuals who are faithful believers yet not healed. Somehow adherents to Word of Faith theology turn a blind eye to this reality.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You cannot tell I am arguing that he was in perfect health throughout?

How is this relevant? Jesus was God and man. He was not affected by original sin.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You cannot tell I am arguing that he was in perfect health throughout?

I don’t understand your claim,

If your claim is that believers only suffer in the ways Jesus suffered, then I disagree and ask you what you base your view upon.

But perhaps I don’t understand your reasoning.

 

[Guojing]

I don’t understand your claim,

If your claim is that believers only suffer in the ways Jesus suffered, then I disagree and ask you what you base your view upon.

But perhaps I don’t understand your reasoning.

Christ on the cross redeemed us of sin, sickness and poverty. We are not suppose to suffer those

But he did not redeem us from other issues like persecution.

So JohnR7 applied that passage in https://christianchat.com/threads/d...er-to-the-image-of-christ.189400/post-4119823 wrongly.

 

[Guojing]

Are you Christian Science? Do you believe that sickness is an illusion? Seems like that is what your claim would lead to,

By the way there is an “already but not yet” aspect to salvation. Believers are saved, yet they will be saved. Their ultimate salvation awaits the consummation at the return of Christ.

If you want to apply that to healing then I agree all are healed physically at the resurrection. That doesn’t mean there’s any guarantee of physical healing before the consummation.

All we really have to do with s look at the myriads of paralyzed individuals who are faithful believers yet not healed. Somehow adherents to Word of Faith theology turn a blind eye to this reality.

Do you think God sees those myriads of individuals as "not healed"?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Do you think God sees those myriads of individuals as "not healed"?

They are spiritually healed, but their bodies are not until the resurrection.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Christ on the cross redeemed us of sin, sickness and poverty. We are not suppose to suffer those

But he did not redeem us from other issues like persecution.

So JohnR7 applied that passage in https://christianchat.com/threads/d...er-to-the-image-of-christ.189400/post-4119823 wrongly.

In other words, your god is not in control..my God is.

All things, including adversity, work to the good of those who are the saved.

Romans 8:28-30.

In fact he uses them to conform the believer to his image.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You cannot tell I am arguing that he was in perfect health throughout?

I am not sure what your point is.

If you reduce Jesus to the level of a mere man, using the kenotic incarnation false teaching, then I can see where it might be relevant, but it's a false teaching.

Such individuals would claim, basically, that they are the equivalent of Jesus.

Perhaps you can elaborate.

 

[John146]

Jesus was the seed of the woman so he was not susceptible to the effects of the Fall. Even if he was, you are arguing from silence.

The woman doesn’t have a seed. The seed was of God. Nothing about the Lord’s body came by Mary.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The woman doesn’t have a seed. The seed was of God. Nothing about the Lord’s body came by Mary.

Christianity disagrees with that position.

Jesus is fully God and fully glorified man. His humanity is important to serving as a substitute for sin.

What you just said is heretical. I don't know the name of the heresy but to deny Jesus' humanity is heretical.

 

[John146]

Christianity disagrees with that position.

Jesus is fully God and fully glorified man. His humanity is important to serving as a substitute for sin.

What you just said is heretical. I don't know the name of the heresy but to deny Jesus' humanity is heretical.

Biology disagrees with you. Where did Mary get the seed that formed the body for Jesus to dwell? God put it there.

Yes, Jesus took on the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of man.

 

[Guojing]

They are spiritually healed, but their bodies are not until the resurrection.

So in God's eyes, we are healed.

Thanks, time to renew my mind to that truth.

 

[Guojing]

In other words, your god is not in control..my God is.

All things, including adversity, work to the good of those who are the saved.

Romans 8:28-30.

In fact he uses them to conform the believer to his image.

But if you agree that Jesus did not suffer any sicknesses while he was on Earth, why should we then suffer what he did not?

 

[Angela53510]

The woman doesn’t have a seed. The seed was of God. Nothing about the Lord’s body came by Mary.

So Jesus was not human? If Mary contributed nothing, then Jesus was not fully man. That heresy is called docetism. Something you obviously don't understand!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism

 

[Angela53510]

So in God's eyes, we are healed.

Thanks, time to renew my mind to that truth.

This is a typical Word Faith over-realized eschatology. You are conflating sanctification with glorification.

1. Justification
Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

In Christian theology, justification is God's righteous act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while, at the same time, declaring the ungodly to be righteous, through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice.

2. Sanctification - 2 Thess 2:13. Sanctification means “to be set apart.” ... But, while justification is God's act of forgiving your sins and counting you righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, sanctification is the continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in order for you to conform to the image of Christ, who is God's son.

3 Glorification Romans 8:30
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Glorification is the final stage of the ordo salutis and an aspect of Christian soteriology and Christian eschatology. It refers to the nature of believers after death and judgement, "the final step in the application of redemption.

When you claim absolute healing in the second phase, which basically is our life on earth, after God saved us, you are mixing up sanctification and glorification.

I know that one day, I will be healed, physically, when Jesus returns and I see him face to face. 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

 

[Guojing]

This is a typical Word Faith over-realized eschatology. You are conflating sanctification with glorification.

1. Justification
Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

In Christian theology, justification is God's righteous act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while, at the same time, declaring the ungodly to be righteous, through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice.

2. Sanctification - 2 Thess 2:13. Sanctification means “to be set apart.” ... But, while justification is God's act of forgiving your sins and counting you righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, sanctification is the continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in order for you to conform to the image of Christ, who is God's son.

3 Glorification Romans 8:30
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Glorification is the final stage of the ordo salutis and an aspect of Christian soteriology and Christian eschatology. It refers to the nature of believers after death and judgement, "the final step in the application of redemption.

When you claim absolute healing in the second phase, which basically is our life on earth, after God saved us, you are mixing up sanctification and glorification.

I know that one day, I will be healed, physically, when Jesus returns and I see him face to face. 1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

We are not talking about justification from sin. The discussion was on whether God sees us as healed from sickness.