Not By Works
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As I already shared with you in post #116,551, in regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Believers are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30) So if these Hebrews who fell away were previously saved, then why didn't the writer of Hebrews use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance?" That would certainly settle the issue.
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some level of assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. (John 16:8) Such people obviously have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. Just as in Matthew 27:34 we see that those crucifying Jesus "offered Him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." *Do we merely "tase" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). Think about it.
People who have experienced all of these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet are still at a crossroad in which some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)
*Also see Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (compare with Hebrews 12:15 - ..comes short of the grace of God) 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For WE who have believed do enter that rest..
*Hebrews 6:9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (the BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. (Jesus makes a connection with wolves in sheep clothing and thorn bushes and thistles in Matthew 7:16). We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear.
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) Losing salvation would contradict that.
Again, partakers can have less than saving association or participation, as in Hebrews 6:4-6, as I already thoroughly explained in post #116,551 but you have your agenda and simply ignore the context and give it a broad brushed application in order to suit what your itching ears want to hear. I've seen people do the same thing with the word, "sanctified." They give it a broad brushed application of "saved" and apply that to Hebrews 10:29, yet after reading this verse in context, we see a different picture, as I already explained to Ralph in post #112 from this thread. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/page-6#post-3670271
I've heard more than one person refer to you as "Ralph." Are you the previous member "Ralph" who has returned to Christian Chat with a different avatar name?
Anyway, I've seen people give the word "justified" a broad brushed application and erroneously teach that "justified by works" in James 2:24 means "saved by works." It's critical that we rightly divide the word of truth and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. Otherwise, we end up with contradictions in scripture and false doctrine.
There have been good and bad theologians from the beginning and in these latter times.
So you blame everything on Calvin. As I said before, I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults teach salvation by works AND strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some level of assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. (John 16:8) Such people obviously have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. Just as in Matthew 27:34 we see that those crucifying Jesus "offered Him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." *Do we merely "tase" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). Think about it.
People who have experienced all of these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet are still at a crossroad in which some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)
*Also see Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (compare with Hebrews 12:15 - ..comes short of the grace of God) 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For WE who have believed do enter that rest..
*Hebrews 6:9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (the BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. (Jesus makes a connection with wolves in sheep clothing and thorn bushes and thistles in Matthew 7:16). We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear.
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) Losing salvation would contradict that.
Again, partakers can have less than saving association or participation, as in Hebrews 6:4-6, as I already thoroughly explained in post #116,551 but you have your agenda and simply ignore the context and give it a broad brushed application in order to suit what your itching ears want to hear. I've seen people do the same thing with the word, "sanctified." They give it a broad brushed application of "saved" and apply that to Hebrews 10:29, yet after reading this verse in context, we see a different picture, as I already explained to Ralph in post #112 from this thread. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/page-6#post-3670271
I've heard more than one person refer to you as "Ralph." Are you the previous member "Ralph" who has returned to Christian Chat with a different avatar name?
Anyway, I've seen people give the word "justified" a broad brushed application and erroneously teach that "justified by works" in James 2:24 means "saved by works." It's critical that we rightly divide the word of truth and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. Otherwise, we end up with contradictions in scripture and false doctrine. There have been good and bad theologians from the beginning and in these latter times.
So you blame everything on Calvin. As I said before, I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults teach salvation by works AND strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.
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I was being sarcastic when I said the apostles taught OSAS every time they preach. My point was, osas was not preached as something you were required to believe to be saved. What they did was preach repentance towards God and faith in Jesus, and teaching of doctrine came afterwards to the convert. So salvation is instant, but learning of correct doctrine takes years.
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I see the mindset of the Pharisees saying, I thank God, I am not like others.
this is what we all see every time you start falsely accusing people of loving sin, having a gospel that excuses sin, and every other false accusation you have made against us.
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The apostles themselves called us to continue in faith. Acts 14:22. I do not disagree with you that we are called to continue in the faith. I do disagree with you on some things, one being the statement that Christ stops mediating for you if you don't keep believing. I believe we are kept by the mediation of Christ, not that we keep the mediation of Christ by continued belief.
I was a prodigal son for years. Jesus did not stop interceding for me. The fact that Jesus continued to intercede for me is the reason that my fall was not permanent.
I was a prodigal son for years. Jesus did not stop interceding for me. The fact that Jesus continued to intercede for me is the reason that my fall was not permanent.
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It's the confidence in the surety of Christ's ministry, as opposed to the ministry of the Levites. This is all detailed in the book of Hebrews. I don't have time to post references right now. But maybe you can scan my old posts where I have.
The 'faith' part itself (the ability to know what you can't see is true - Heb. 11:1) is the gracious gift of God. Without it no one can know the gospel is true for them to even do anything with it. It is through that gift of faith--that gift of knowing--that the righteousness of God apart from the righteousness of the law is bestowed on a person.
The believing part--the trusting part--is your part. We place our trust in that which God has proven to us is true through the supernatural gift of 'knowing' he has given u;s. He does the proving part through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. We do the trusting part in response to the testimony he has given. God does not do the believing part for us. He encourages it, but he does not actually do the trusting part. That is what it means for the righteousness you receive from God comes to you through faith.
Yes.
Christ's ministry is able to stay the course and do for you what it claims it will do for you. So don't abandon it.
Continuance of faith without any input from you IS Calvinism. You can't talk about this subject without invariably examining the 'automatic' nature of faith and salvation, and the person who invented it, in it's present 'Calvinistic' form.
There are too many admonitions in the Bible for YOU to keep believing for it to be someone else, or something else doing that believing and persevering for you. Encouraging you to do it, yes. Actually doing it for you, no.
If this isn't sinking in just yet, consider this: Is simply knowing about the gospel sufficient to save a person? No. But that is the very definition of 'faith'--the conviction and assurance of something you can't see (Hebrews 11:1). Just knowing if the gospel is true is not what saves you. What saves you is believing and trusting in the gospel you now know to be true through God's gift of faith. See the difference?
By definition, faith 'alone' is 'knowledge alone'. That will not save you. But faith that is not alone but has the footsteps commensurate with believing in what that faith has shown you, THAT is the 'faith' that saves.
Can't be late for work....gotta run....
The 'faith' part itself (the ability to know what you can't see is true - Heb. 11:1) is the gracious gift of God. Without it no one can know the gospel is true for them to even do anything with it. It is through that gift of faith--that gift of knowing--that the righteousness of God apart from the righteousness of the law is bestowed on a person.
The believing part--the trusting part--is your part. We place our trust in that which God has proven to us is true through the supernatural gift of 'knowing' he has given u;s. He does the proving part through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. We do the trusting part in response to the testimony he has given. God does not do the believing part for us. He encourages it, but he does not actually do the trusting part. That is what it means for the righteousness you receive from God comes to you through faith.
Yes.
Christ's ministry is able to stay the course and do for you what it claims it will do for you. So don't abandon it.
Continuance of faith without any input from you IS Calvinism. You can't talk about this subject without invariably examining the 'automatic' nature of faith and salvation, and the person who invented it, in it's present 'Calvinistic' form.
There are too many admonitions in the Bible for YOU to keep believing for it to be someone else, or something else doing that believing and persevering for you. Encouraging you to do it, yes. Actually doing it for you, no.
If this isn't sinking in just yet, consider this: Is simply knowing about the gospel sufficient to save a person? No. But that is the very definition of 'faith'--the conviction and assurance of something you can't see (Hebrews 11:1). Just knowing if the gospel is true is not what saves you. What saves you is believing and trusting in the gospel you now know to be true through God's gift of faith. See the difference?
By definition, faith 'alone' is 'knowledge alone'. That will not save you. But faith that is not alone but has the footsteps commensurate with believing in what that faith has shown you, THAT is the 'faith' that saves.
Can't be late for work....gotta run....
