Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
Lol so you can bear fruit without repenting??? Oh man this needs more study👌
I am confused by this post. I would not ever say that. I would say you could do works without repentance Matthew 7:22, but not that one could bear good fruit

A. To bear good fruit, you must be a good tree

B. To be a good tree, you must be converted

C. You cannot be converted without repentance and faith
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
2. There is a difference between the PEOPLE of God, and the CHILDREN of God. Corporally, the Nation Israel are God's people, but not all of them are the Children of God. They are referred to as the children of Abraham, or children of Israel, but I don't think they are ever corporally referred to as the Children of God.

3. Once we are born again, (THAT'S the key) we are filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. This Seal CANNOT be broken by ANYTHING except Jesus Himself. We see this in Revelation where John wept convulsively because NO ONE could break the seal. Same word is used there. So JESUS would have to break the Seal HE put on us, and leave and forsake US, NOT us leave and forsake Him.
Yep. Jesus is the only one who can remove the Holy Spirit from a person.
And he will do that if you reject him and you refuse to come back to him.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
Yep. Jesus is the only one who can remove the Holy Spirit from a person.
And he will do that if you reject him and you refuse to come back to him.
Well this is about as silly as you can get.


If the Holy Spirit is IN someone, and has Sealed them, then they are a saved, born again Child of God.

I thought you said you didn't believe a born again Child of God could lose their Salvation? Which is it?
 
Oct 2, 2019
43
25
8
i have panic disorder with depression, i am suffocating at times but my exams keep coming despite that. Tomorrow I will be giving an exam but there is still this irrational panic - a rush within which i know isn't normal. They are giving me sedatives to decrease those symptoms and ofcourse am on antidepressants for almost a year now.
My question is - what does a Christian do here, what is my role when I feel so crippled to do good to anyone? And yes this thread is about 'Not by works' but I fail to understand how to ....just lead a Christian life ....I dont know...with panic coming and going now and then , thus interfering with my studies. I guess all I have to do is keep breathing and keep going on, maybe God knows how crippling this is...this panic and its reactions in my body. Maybe He knows I am not able to do much for my studies right now and neither for others.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
You believe that retain what you heard from the beginning means "Keep believing in Jesus?"

Did you bother to look at the CONTEXT if you are referring to 2 Timothy 3:14?
No, I'm not referring to that verse.
And, yes, it does mean keep believing in Jesus.
Look at the context these verses are in about retaining what you heard in the beginning.
The context is salvation.

1 John 2:24 KJV
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain (that is, your faith is in vain if Christ didn't really rise from the dead).


The condition for being saved is that the gospel you heard in the beginning be retained in faith by you. I got a lot of resistance about that, but they seem to be agreeing with that truth.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
I am confused by this post. I would not ever say that. I would say you could do works without repentance Matthew 7:22, but not that one could bear good fruit

A. To bear good fruit, you must be a good tree

B. To be a good tree, you must be converted

C. You cannot be converted without repentance and faith
She makes a good point by being sarcastic. :)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
i have panic disorder with depression, i am suffocating at times but my exams keep coming despite that. Tomorrow I will be giving an exam but there is still this irrational panic - a rush within which i know isn't normal. They are giving me sedatives to decrease those symptoms and ofcourse am on antidepressants for almost a year now.
My question is - what does a Christian do here, what is my role when I feel so crippled to do good to anyone? And yes this thread is about 'Not by works' but I fail to understand how to ....just lead a Christian life ....I dont know...with panic coming and going now and then , thus interfering with my studies. I guess all I have to do is keep breathing and keep going on, maybe God knows how crippling this is...this panic and its reactions in my body. Maybe He knows I am not able to do much for my studies right now and neither for others.
The good you are to do is to love your neighbor.
That may be as simple as giving someone a nice smile. It may be recognizing they are in a different place than you, and that's why they seem angry or nasty. YOU, could be the person that is used of God to bring light to them.

It may be writing a post to assure someone that their Heavenly Father loves them. It may be giving a ride, or visiting with them, or lending a few dollars .... on and on.

It's not about putting Jesus, and doing good deeds, number one on a list of ten things you do today.

It's about incorporating Jesus into EVERYTHING on that list today!

Be blessed and be a blessing!
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
i have panic disorder with depression, i am suffocating at times but my exams keep coming despite that. Tomorrow I will be giving an exam but there is still this irrational panic - a rush within which i know isn't normal. They are giving me sedatives to decrease those symptoms and ofcourse am on antidepressants for almost a year now.
My question is - what does a Christian do here, what is my role when I feel so crippled to do good to anyone? And yes this thread is about 'Not by works' but I fail to understand how to ....just lead a Christian life ....I dont know...with panic coming and going now and then , thus interfering with my studies. I guess all I have to do is keep breathing and keep going on, maybe God knows how crippling this is...this panic and its reactions in my body. Maybe He knows I am not able to do much for my studies right now and neither for others.
Living for Christ means trusting him with whatever the outcome may be in any and all circumstances we find ourselves in.

Usually, when we don't trust Christ in our daily situations we end up resorting to sin to defend and protect ourselves. That's how our natural selves react to and try to control life. But to trust in Christ means to be still, do what good you know to do, and don't resort to sinful things like anger and rage, or self-indulgence, or hatred, or violence, or pride, etc. to protect our well being and control our circumstances.

After a while of doing that, you'll begin to see how God does intervene and protect and guide the person who trusts in him for help and guidance and you'll get better at doing that and more willing to do that in the future. That's how we grow up in Christ. It's a journey. One step at a time.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Well this is about as silly as you can get.


If the Holy Spirit is IN someone, and has Sealed them, then they are a saved, born again Child of God.

I thought you said you didn't believe a born again Child of God could lose their Salvation? Which is it?
Read what I wrote, man.
Yep. Jesus is the only one who can remove the Holy Spirit from a person.
And he will do that if you reject him and you refuse to come back to him.
Jesus will forsake the believer who later rejects him and refuses to come back to him.
The Galatians prove that to abandon faith in Jesus for justification is to lose Christ and the inheritance, eternal life. Paul said so.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Read what I wrote, man.

Jesus will forsake the believer who later rejects him and refuses to come back to him.
The Galatians prove that to abandon faith in Jesus for justification is to lose Christ and the inheritance, eternal life. Paul said so.
You won’t listen to anyone

Have fun earning your salvation
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
PennEd put me on ignore because he wants to continue in his sins.

NO, you have TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD THE GOSPEL, and now present the FALSE GOSPEL OF WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS:


Romans 4:4-5 (ESV)
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (which you can NEVER, EVER live up to PERFECT HOLINESS, which is GOD STANDARD of HOLINESS.]
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And one mile OVER the posted speed limit FOR ANY REASON, even accidentally, makes you guilty of the ENTIRE LAW, in other words, you are as bad as the WORST MASS MURDERER on Death Row.

1576172733013.jpeg

James 2:10 (CSBBible)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. 🖜 [That means if you are a U.S. Citizen, and you speak one bad word about President Donald Trump, you are GUILTY of the ENTIRE LAW OF GOD.]

That is the Standard YOU MUST LIVE UP TO, in order to COUNT YOUR WORKS for SALVATION.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
Read what I wrote, man.

Jesus will forsake the believer who later rejects him and refuses to come back to him.
The Galatians prove that to abandon faith in Jesus for justification is to lose Christ and the inheritance, eternal life. Paul said so.
Welcome to SQUARE ONE folks!

You DO believe a born again Child of god can lose their Salvation!

WE DON'T. WE, trust Jesus to keep His Children saved!
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
You DO believe a born again Child of god can lose their Salvation!
That's what I've been saying all along.
The born again person who goes back to unbelief is now an unbeliever.
Only believers continuing in faith are protected by God's power:

1 Peter 1:4-5 NAS
an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


No more faith in Christ means no more power of God protecting you in salvation.

It's fine if you want to think that believers will always believe and so will always be protected, but we know from the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church that is not true.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,271
1,430
113
i have panic disorder with depression, i am suffocating at times but my exams keep coming despite that. Tomorrow I will be giving an exam but there is still this irrational panic - a rush within which i know isn't normal. They are giving me sedatives to decrease those symptoms and ofcourse am on antidepressants for almost a year now.
My question is - what does a Christian do here, what is my role when I feel so crippled to do good to anyone? And yes this thread is about 'Not by works' but I fail to understand how to ....just lead a Christian life ....I dont know...with panic coming and going now and then , thus interfering with my studies. I guess all I have to do is keep breathing and keep going on, maybe God knows how crippling this is...this panic and its reactions in my body. Maybe He knows I am not able to do much for my studies right now and neither for others.
God knows all about your feelings. And you are not alone. Sometimes putting on some relaxing music with nature scenes have helped me.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
That's what I've been saying all along.
The born again person who goes back to unbelief is now an unbeliever.
Only believers continuing in faith are protected by God's power:

1 Peter 1:4-5 NAS
an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


No more faith in Christ means no more power of God protecting you in salvation.

It's fine if you want to think that believers will always believe and so always be protected, but we know from the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church that is not true.
Here is my vastly contemplative, highly erudite response!

1576175892124.png
 

Butterflyyy

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2019
1,626
1,319
113
...

I haven't had time to dig into your doctrine, but I have to agree it's funny how so many people through history know better than the earliest church fathers immediately following, and taught by, the Apostles.

For example, once saved always saved comes from Gnostic beliefs, which were firmly resisted by the church in the beginning. Those beliefs finally gained a foothold in the church with the reformation. And now look at how the leaven of that teaching has worked it's way almost through the whole batch of dough until we have this disobedient, godless church who thinks they're going to be welcomed in the kingdom despite their godless, disobedient, lawless lives. But Jesus did say 'Many will say to me in that day...'
Never mind all that let's just look at what the Bible says... what it is really saying; lets search deep for truth in the Word alone👌Asking Him to lead us in all truth🙏🏻
 

Butterflyyy

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2019
1,626
1,319
113
...

I haven't had time to dig into your doctrine, but I have to agree it's funny how so many people through history know better than the earliest church fathers immediately following, and taught by, the Apostles.

For example, once saved always saved comes from Gnostic beliefs, which were firmly resisted by the church in the beginning. Those beliefs finally gained a foothold in the church with the reformation. And now look at how the leaven of that teaching has worked it's way almost through the whole batch of dough until we have this disobedient, godless church who thinks they're going to be welcomed in the kingdom despite their godless, disobedient, lawless lives. But Jesus did say 'Many will say to me in that day...'
Sorry, I thought I was addressing Jaden here lol; I rushed through reading it; I do apologise.