Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Conflation Station will never equal Salvation

Conditional blessing ascribed in the O.T. and UNDER the LAW will NEVER mix with GRACE and the promises of the N.T......EVER!

Salvation, justification, being sealed in Christ positionally and the very faith that saves are all FREE GIFTS given IRREVOCABLY in the N.T.

Try to actually grasp that TRUTH!

Amen

and we must remember,

no one was ever saved y the law OT or NT!

King David understood this clearly when he proclaimed sacrifice and burnt offering god did not desire!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You believe in irresistable grace? It seems to me that if grace is irresistable, then some are not offered grace, for if everyone was offered grace and it was irresistable, everyone would be saved.

For this reason I do not believe the I in tulip. Unless I misunderstand.

Amen i am with ya.

when I read the calvin post, the Verse of an old Iron Maiden song started playing in my head “run to the hills, run for your life”

lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some only APPEAR to be Christians They are in a church, even as ministers sometimes, but never converted.

I knew a pastor who was a pastor for many years before he was converted. He had to stand up and tell his flock he had just gotten saved.

If a person is a professing Christian, but not born from above, they may go out from us

We do not know who is saved or not. We leave that up to God to DISCERN

Amen, as John said, they went out from us, but there where not of us, for if they were they never would have departed

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obviously......and the whole context of that discourse is bearing fruit, not works to keep salvation....and note....in that whole discourse it is MEN that purge trees and burn branches.....

ALL works shall be tried by fire...those who works are burnt are still saved so as by fire......

Amen or as hebrews 6 says, some will bear thorns and stuff, and near to being cursed, in the end the weeds will be burned.

a child can not fall away, they can become prodigal children, but falling away is impossible, they would have to be stronger than the God who, said he will NEVER let us Go

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.
This is of faith, and if genuine when we pray we believe He hears, when we read the inspired written word we know it's True and when we walk in the spirit, it would mean our spirit is already quickened. (made alive)
Though many believe they have been made new and are in Christ, He never knew them.


_________

I typed this out awhile ago but I believe the verse you bring up has more to do with the goat among sheep or wheat among tares.... the braches that bare fruit and those completely void of fruit....

I believe the timing of this lesson and Judas is important.

___________

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Two sorts of branches


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"



______

I believe in me, would be those in the church, the body of Christ....

Some of which are not actually born again but have many supposed wonderful works to try to point to....

I believe these verses have absolutely nothing to do with a born again child of God, being thrown into fire...

I think the reason given gives us a clue

they tried to bear fruit themselves (apart from Christ) Ie they never had Christ. They were imperinating believers but were never believers themselves

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I go by this:

Hebrews 12:14-17 KJV
" 14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."

He forfeited the inheritance in favor of fleshly desire. Many say that the person who does that won't care that he has done that. But as we can see in the above passage, Esau shows us that's not necessarily true.


Any believer who is worried that they might lose their salvation probably doesn't know that the only way they can lose justification in Christ is to reject Christ altogether. The day to day struggles with sin of the person who is continuing to trust in Christ can not separate them from Christ. He remains faithful when we are faithless (but still trusting in Christ). He'll only deny us if we deny him in unbelief.

Only going back to unbelief and staying there can separate the believer from Christ. Unbelief can happen by either deliberately choosing to no longer believe in Christ (perhaps because of the influence of false doctrines--like what happened to the Corinthians and the Galatians), or by having the heart hardened by the deceitfulness of unrepentant sin.


You only have to worry about your salvation if you have gone back to, or are contemplating returning to, unbelief.
And if you are tempted to go back to unbelief, take it to God in honest prayer. It's his job to give you every encouragement available to keep you trusting in Christ. He will reach out to help you.

No one ever has to worry about salvation

we could not earn it, we can never unearn it

it is our knowledge we HAVE eternal life that empowers our continued faith (John) if we do not have this knowledge, then we risk rejecting Christ, because we never trusted him to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh good so I can keep at it then. Only joking!!

Keep it up need some laughter in here

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was pretty much irresistable for me too. But I struggle because if it’s always irresistable, that would mean that there was not an actual extension of grace those who resist. And I think Gods grace is unto all, but only upon all that believe

Grace is given to all the cross is the foundation of that grace, Jesus died for all, not some.

some recieve it. some resist it

but it is the same grace

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This link is very helpful to Catholics who are wondering why we Christians are not part of the Catholic Church.
It explains why Catholicism is not Christianity, and why it is a deception if it is being presented as Christianity.
Hope this helps and blesses someone 🙂

Thank you, and welcome to CC!

 

[Discern]

I hope you do not think I'm suggesting water baptism is a legalistic part of getting saved.

John's baptism was for repentance.
The focus of water baptism is to be on the repentance, not the water as a legalistic procedure as some churches view it.

Repentance is not enough to see the kingdom of God. That only births a natural man into the nation of God , not a spiritual man. You must also be born of the Spirit from above. You must be "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5 NAS).

The Jews had the 'water' part down pat. They were all about repentance unto the commands of God in the law, because that's what they were taught and knew about. What they lacked was the 'Spirit' part, without which they could not see and enter into the kingdom of God.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Discern]

I hope you do not think I'm suggesting water baptism is a legalistic part of getting saved.

John's baptism was for repentance.
The focus of water baptism is to be on the repentance, not the water as a legalistic procedure as some churches view it.

Repentance is not enough to see the kingdom of God. That only births a natural man into the nation of God , not a spiritual man. You must also be born of the Spirit from above. You must be "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5 NAS).

The Jews had the 'water' part down pat. They were all about repentance unto the commands of God in the law, because that's what they were taught and knew about. What they lacked was the 'Spirit' part, without which they could not see and enter into the kingdom of God.

You have an interesting perspective. It's interesting that both John the Baptist and Jesus began their ministry with the message of "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Repent and believe the Gospel." I believe that repentance and faith are both commanded and granted by God, and are the door through which one enters the Kingdom. (well, actually Jesus is the door, and we enter through Him, by repenting and believing by His Grace.) Paul also said "teaching repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus".

The Spirit convinces the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement. When God drew me to Himself, He first showed me my wretched state, which pierced my heart and caused me to cry out for forgiveness. Then He showed me the work of Christ and said "look to me and be saved". I called on the NAME, and immediately I was born again. I do not hold that it was anything that I had done that saved me. From first to last, the New Birth was a work that He accomplished. And He has carried me ever since.

 

[PennEd]

Yes, “He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you"-Deut. 31:8....if you do not forsake him.
Read the rest of the passage:

"this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and (they) will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them" - Deuteronomy 31:16-17

That's where the fail safe protection of God is. In Him, not out and away from Him in unbelief. The promise is conditioned on you staying in God. That's where your eternal security lies.

Boy. You REALLY want to work for your Salvation!

First, what about the 4 or 5 other points in my post? NOT, that that are all there are. I frequently post the piece entitled 101 reasons for Eternal Security.

But on this point you are talking about a couple of things.

1. DID God leave and forsake HIS elect of Israel? He chastised, He disciplined, He corrected, He RESTORED. The Book of Esther is a great example of the Lord CONSTANTLY working ALL things for His Children behind the scenes. NEVER stopping drawing His back to Him. Searching for His UNTIL He finds them.

2. There is a difference between the PEOPLE of God, and the CHILDREN of God. Corporally, the Nation Israel are God's people, but not all of them are the Children of God. They are referred to as the children of Abraham, or children of Israel, but I don't think they are ever corporally referred to as the Children of God.

3. Once we are born again, (THAT'S the key) we are filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. This Seal CANNOT be broken by ANYTHING except Jesus Himself. We see this in Revelation where John wept convulsively because NO ONE could break the seal. Same word is used there. So JESUS would have to break the Seal HE put on us, and leave and forsake US, NOT us leave and forsake Him.


This is ALL Good News! It causes us to love Him more, and although it seems counter-intuitive, SIN LESS!!!

If you are born again, you need to embrace that He is your Father. He will do what is necessary to conform His Child into the likeness of His only begotten Son. Rejoice at that!

 

[Judges1318]

I believe that repentance and faith are both commanded and granted by God, and are the door through which one enters the Kingdom. (well, actually Jesus is the door, and we enter through Him, by repenting and believing by His Grace.) Paul also said "teaching repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus".

Bingo!

 

[Judges1318]

Boy. You REALLY want to work for your Salvation!

No. That is impossible to do.
It's not a works gospel to say what the Bible says, that you can not be saved by a faith that leaves no footprints of obedience in the sand. The faith that saves is the faith of Abraham.

Justification by faith, apart from works, FIRST.
Then justification by the work that faith produces, SECOND.
That's not a works gospel. If it is, then the Bible teaches a works gospel.

First, what about the 4 or 5 other points in my post?

The point I addressed nullifies all the other ones.

NOT, that that are all there are. I frequently post the piece entitled 101 reasons for Eternal Security.

The argument is not whether or not salvation is eternally secure. I believe salvation is eternally secure. I believe that Christ and his ministry for the believer will never, ever end or let you down in any way shape or form (like the Levitical ministry did). That's the security of salvation. And which is exactly why you should not depart in unbelief from such a perfectly effective and never ending ministry.

Hebrews 4:14 NAS
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Hebrews 10:23 NAS
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful

If you want, you can continue to believe and teach that salvation being eternal and never ending means you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved, and I will continue to believe and teach what the Bible says eternal security actually means. Eternal security means Christ's perfect, faithful, and effectual ministry for you will never fail you or forsake you, and that's why you should continue to hold onto it by faith and not cast it aside.

1. DID God leave and forsake HIS elect of Israel?

Yes!
Deuteronomy 31 is a prophecy telling them that is exactly what is going to do, when they forsake him.

Deuteronomy 31:16 NAS
16The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them

He chastised, He disciplined, He corrected, He RESTORED. The Book of Esther is a great example of the Lord CONSTANTLY working ALL things for His Children behind the scenes. NEVER stopping drawing His back to Him. Searching for His UNTIL He finds them.

Israel is a congregate of people. He forsook and then restored the nation as a whole a couple of times already. But individual Israelites who sinned in unbelief and died when he forsook them are lost to this very day. They did not remain saved when they left God in unbelief and died in that sin of unbelief.

I'll read and respond to the rest of your post later.....

Off to work I go.........so I can save myself, lol.

 

[EleventhHour]

Boy. You REALLY want to work for your Salvation!

First, what about the 4 or 5 other points in my post? NOT, that that are all there are. I frequently post the piece entitled 101 reasons for Eternal Security.

But on this point you are talking about a couple of things.

1. DID God leave and forsake HIS elect of Israel? He chastised, He disciplined, He corrected, He RESTORED. The Book of Esther is a great example of the Lord CONSTANTLY working ALL things for His Children behind the scenes. NEVER stopping drawing His back to Him. Searching for His UNTIL He finds them.

2. There is a difference between the PEOPLE of God, and the CHILDREN of God. Corporally, the Nation Israel are God's people, but not all of them are the Children of God. They are referred to as the children of Abraham, or children of Israel, but I don't think they are ever corporally referred to as the Children of God.

3. Once we are born again, (THAT'S the key) we are filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. This Seal CANNOT be broken by ANYTHING except Jesus Himself. We see this in Revelation where John wept convulsively because NO ONE could break the seal. Same word is used there. So JESUS would have to break the Seal HE put on us, and leave and forsake US, NOT us leave and forsake Him.


This is ALL Good News! It causes us to love Him more, and although it seems counter-intuitive, SIN LESS!!!

If you are born again, you need to embrace that He is your Father. He will do what is necessary to conform His Child into the likeness of His only begotten Son. Rejoice at that!

Changed my response from to a ribbon... thank you for your response ... blessed me tremendously!

Very encouraging to me.... after awhile those that keep harping on salvation can be lost start to wear me out.... and I want to give up and get out of Dodge

 

[PennEd]

It's not a works gospel to say what the Bible says, that you can not be saved by a faith that leaves no footprints of obedience in the sand. The faith that saves is the faith of Abraham.

Justification by faith, apart from works, FIRST.
Then justification by the work that faith produces, SECOND.
That's not a works gospel. If it is, then the Bible teaches a works gospel.

This IS a works gospel, and the Bible teaches NO such thing.

The point I addressed nullifies all the other ones.

Ridiculous.

The argument is not whether or not salvation is eternally secure. I believe salvation is eternally secure. I believe that Christ and his ministry for the believer will never, ever end or let you down in any way shape or form (like the Levitical ministry did). That's the security of salvation. And which is exactly why you should not depart in unbelief from such a perfectly effective and never ending ministry.

Completely ignored the points about us being Sealed, and the Father working to constantly discipline, draw us to Him, and search UNTIL He finds us. The rest of this section is more works, YOU keeping YOU saved false gospel.

Yes!
Deuteronomy 31 is a prophecy telling them that is exactly what is going to do, when they forsake him.

Deuteronomy 31:16 NAS
16The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them

Completely ignored the point of the difference between the corporate PEOPLE of God and the CHILDREN of God, and how He never really left His Children.

 

[PennEd]

Israel is a congregate of people. He forsook and then restored the nation as a whole a couple of times already. But individual Israelites who sinned in unbelief and died when he forsook them are lost to this very day. They did not remain saved when they left God in unbelief and died in that sin of unbelief.

Who said the individual Israelites that died in unbelief were EVER His Children?
John tells us that those who leave the faith were NEVER His to begin with.


So go to work, BUT, stop working to maintain your Salvation. Realize how offensive it is to preach that God will cast His born again Children, that He died for, gave a NEW heart to, made a NEW creation, into the Lake of Fire!

 

[EleventhHour]

Who said the individual Israelites that died in unbelief were EVER His Children?
John tells us that those who leave the faith were NEVER His to begin with.


So go to work, BUT, stop working to maintain your Salvation. Realize how offensive it is to preach that God will cast His born again Children, that He died for, gave a NEW heart to, made a NEW creation, into the Lake of Fire!

Thank you!!!

 

[PennEd]

Changed my response from to a ribbon... thank you for your response ... blessed me tremendously!

Very encouraging to me.... after awhile those that keep harping on salvation can be lost start to wear me out.... and I want to give up and get out of Dodge

Thank you sister. I'm like an ex smoker, who can't stand to be around cigarette smoke any longer. I used to be like these dudes. Thinking like they do. I try and remember that, and have compassion on them.

 

[EleventhHour]

Thank you sister. I'm like an ex smoker, who can't stand to be around cigarette smoke any longer. I used to be like these dudes. Thinking like they do. I try and remember that, and have compassion on them.

I have tremendous compassion for them that is the problem ... they break my heart!