What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Ahwatukee]

You know this is really getting old by you guys and this "wrath" thing. Of course God has destined us for wrath because were His children.

Vs3, "When they say peace and safety then destruction will come." Who do you think the "THEY" is j146 who will not escape" Escape what j146? Vs4, "But you brethren, (meaning Christians) are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." In other words the ones that are in darkness are the unsaved people.

Vs5, We are sons of light and sons of day/saved. We are not of night or darkness/the unsaved. Vs6-8, We should live soberly and put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. Vs9, FOR (or because) God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUG OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

The meaning of "But you brothers, are not in darkness," is in opposition to those who are darkness, the wicked. The wicked will not escape, but "you brothers" will. And the way that they will escape, is because the Lord is going appear and call up His church. "But you brothers" immediately infers the opposite of not escaping.

Now, I have noticed that no one has used Luke 21 as a cross reference to Matthew 24. At Luke 21:34, "Be on guard that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Vs35, for (or because) IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." It seems to me that the great tribulation at least according to this verse includes everybody on the face of the earth.

Why would Jesus warn us to "Be on guard" if both the righteous and the wicked were going to remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath? He's telling us to be on our guard so that we don't go back into living according to the sinful nature and be caught in that time of wrath. Because once the Lord gather's His church, the door will be shut. And everyone is not caught up, will be trapped in that time of wrath.

The reference to " IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH" is referring to the wicked and believers living according to the sinful nature when it takes place. "ALL, does not include true believers in Christ. The righteous escape, because Jesus returns to get them.

So where's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?

That is strength to continue in faith, so that when the resurrection takes place, the living believers will be ready to go and escape that time period that is going to come upon the whole entire earth. It is not talking about physical or mental strength to make it through that time period.

Did you notice that these events are spoken of in terms of the "last day." And at 1 Corinthians 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. Also read verses 53-58.

The "Last Trumpet" is the last of a specific type of trumpet, not just any trumpet. For example the "Last trumpet" in I Cor.15:52 is not the same type of trumpet as the "Loud Trumpet" of Matt.24:31 when the angels go throughout the earth and gather those who will have made it alive through the tribulation period. I have said It many post, we need to be careful to not pigeonhole words like trumpet and clouds. These are the things that trip people up in their interpretation of scripture.

Now, here is my last question? At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when the Lord comes and according to those verses "in a twinkling of an eye" are we raptured to heaven or are we coming to the earth?

The living are changed immortal and glorified and are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to the promise in John 14:1-3, He will at that time take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.


Blessings in christ

 

[presidente]

Where does the Bible teach this?

I mean verses that say that Jesus will take us to heaven (immediately) at his return. I Thessalonians 4 tells us that Christ will descend. Philippians 3 says Christ will come from heavenly. I Corinthians 15 says we shall bear the image of the heavenly. Where are the verses in these passages that you believe prove your points-- not verses about which you imagine the pre-trib scenario when you read them.

 

[bluto]

Luke 21:36 is saying we won't be here? What is your point? Those who are watching are worthy to ESCAPE all these things that are about to take place.

No it's not saying that and I'll tell you my point. "THINK" for a second and read the context and follow the sequence of events which Jesus describes starting at Luke 21:10. Nation will rise against nation. Vs11, "earthquakes, famine and plagues. Vs12, "Before all these things take place they will lay hands on you and persecute you and put you in prisons.

Vs13, Jesus says this will be an opportunity to share your testimony. Vs14, Jesus says to be prepared to defend yourselves. I love the second ammendment. Vs15, Jesus will give us wisdom and by the Holy Spirit speak the gospel and refute those that are against us. Vs16, "Are parents, brothers and sisters and other relatives that are not saved will turn on us and we will be hated.

Vs18, "God will keep the persecuted Christian in this evil world and you will not perish. Vs19, Jesus says to endure." Vs20,21, "Jerusaleum will be surrounded by the Gentiles and at vs21, fless to the mountains and run, don't walk out of the city. (WHY?) Vs22, because these days are of vengeance in order all things that are writted may be fulfilled."

Vs23, Woe to those who are with child, , there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people and they will fall by the edge of the sword etc. and Jersaleum will be trampled under by the Gentiles. Vs25, And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. Mattthew 24:29. (Now please pay attention.)
"But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, The sun will be darkened, and the moon not give its light, and the stars will fall etc. Matthew 24:30, and the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Luke 21:27, "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great power and glory."

At vs31, "Even so you, too, when you see these things happening recognize the kingdom of God is near." So the point is turtle, this is all in the context of tribulation and like it says at Luke 21:35, "for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth." Finally Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to (get raptured, no) escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." That's my point turtle.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

I mean verses that say that Jesus will take us to heaven (immediately) at his return.

Not "His return" (which applies to the Second Coming), but His coming for His saints (which is in the air and momentary). John 14:1-3 spells it all out.

Let not your heart be troubled... DON'T FOCUS ON TRIBULATION

...ye believe in God, believe also in me... JESUS IS GOD, BELIEVE HIM

In my Father's house... HEAVEN IS GOD THE FATHER'S HOUSE

...are many mansions...THE NEW JERUSALEM IS REPLETE WITH MANSIONS

if it were not so, I would have told you... THESE ARE DIVINE FACTS

I go to prepare a place for you... CHRIST ANTICIPATED A RETURN TO HEAVEN AFTER HIS RESURRECTION

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again... THIS IS THE BLESSED HOPE OF THE BELIEVER, THE IMMINENT COMING OF CHRIST

...and receive you unto myself.. AND HERE IS THE FIRST REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE, LONG BEFORE THE 19TH CENTURY

...that where I am, there ye may be also... SINCE CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN, THE SAINTS WILL ALSO BE THERE.

 

[John146]

I mean verses that say that Jesus will take us to heaven (immediately) at his return. I Thessalonians 4 tells us that Christ will descend. Philippians 3 says Christ will come from heavenly. I Corinthians 15 says we shall bear the image of the heavenly. Where are the verses in these passages that you believe prove your points-- not verses about which you imagine the pre-trib scenario when you read them.

Who are these in heaven that have been redeemed from every kindred, tongue and nation?

Revelation 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Melach]

Who are these in heaven that have been redeemed from every kindred, tongue and nation?

Revelation 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

how about the souls of those who have died today and yesterday? i dont know what makes pre-tribbers believe that these guys in revelation 5 have already their resurrection bodies

 

[Absolutely]

So are you calling Stephen, James, and probably 11 or so of the 12 apostles (counting Matthias not Judas)... and Paul... lazy, and are you saying they took the easy way out?

You really should think before you type.



You can spin the parable of the virgins in a pretrib way like pretribbers do with other passages. Do you have any scripture that actually teachs pre-trib? The rapture/resurrection event occurs at Jesus coming in I Thes. 4. Do you have any Biblical evidence that Jesus will come back multiple times? Or why do you think the saints will be raptured before Jesus comes back instead of what the Bible teaches?

No not saying that.
I am sayung it is ironic that those that are maintaining a high level with God in devotion ,worship, and zeal,are being classified as looking for an easy way out by looking for His coming, are being mocked by those that will be decapitated and that death is so fast and "easy" (i know it is not in reality) and immediate,IN A SENSE,it becomes the ultimate irony.

So you are reframing my point.

I have the highest respect for our martyred brethren.

 

[John146]

how about the souls of those who have died today and yesterday? i dont know what makes pre-tribbers believe that these guys in revelation 5 have already their resurrection bodies

They are redeemed. The redemption has taken place. The rapture has taken place and they have received the adoption, the redemption of their bodies.

 

[Melach]

They are redeemed. The redemption has taken place. The rapture has taken place and they have received the adoption, the redemption of their bodies.

where does it say that?

 

[Absolutely]

You know this is really getting old by you guys and this "wrath" thing. Of course God has destined us for wrath because were His children. Did you read the context before you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:9? I don't think did j146. Look at vs2 (and I'm going to parapharse the verses). "For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord will come like a thief."

Vs3, "When they say peace and safety then destruction will come." Who do you think the "THEY" is j146 who will not escape" Escape what j146? Vs4, "But you brethren, (meaning Christians) are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." In other words the ones that are in darkness are the unsaved people.

Vs5, We are sons of light and sons of day/saved. We are not of night or darkness/the unsaved. Vs6-8, We should live soberly and put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. Vs9, FOR (or because) God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUG OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

The clear context of vs9 is showing us that the ones destined for God's wrath/judgment are those who are not saved. Now, this is backed up by Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5 and in the OT Nahum 1:2. Please read the verses. In short what you have done j146 is attaching chapter 5 to the rapture at 1 Thess chapter 4:13-18.

Now, I have noticed that no one has used Luke 21 as a cross reference to Matthew 24. At Luke 21:34, "Be on guard that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Vs35, for (or because) IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." It seems to me that the great tribulation at least according to this verse includes everbody on the face of the earth.

So wher's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?

Did you notice that these events are spoken of in terms of the "last day." And at 1 Corinthinas 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. Also read verses 53-58.

Now, here is my last question? At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when the Lord comes and according to those verses "in a twinkling of an eye" are we raptured to heaven or are we coming to the earth?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Ironically the ac is COMISSIONED to kill saints.

Kinda makes a point about wrath vs "we are not appointed to wrath"

We are appointed to the pretrib rapture.


So...it is irony that those left behind are IN A SENSE , keeping an appointment with wrath that need no be.

I was reading in hebrews today where ,once again,the arrival of Jesus ,or looking to it,is forefront.

(I have to believe he is coming before satan,in order to say it with any conviction)

Notice that postribs have no "soon coming" confession to their walk.
Of course that would be missing....they don't believe it.!!!

 

[Absolutely]

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Absolutely]

how about the souls of those who have died today and yesterday? i dont know what makes pre-tribbers believe that these guys in revelation 5 have already their resurrection bodies

I dont see the conflict.

Where is the conflict?

 

[John146]

where does it say that?

Verse 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What’s the redemption? The redemption is when the adoption takes place at the rapture, the gathering together all things in Christ.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Our bodies will be resurrected and changed at the adoption.

1 Corinthians 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Absolutely]

Where is Christ right now? Is He seated at the right hand of the Father? Do you believe in the promised earthly kingdom of Israel?

I understand your point.

But must Jesus be removed from his kingship (throne) to "prove" some na point?
He is king now.

Not "will be"

 

[bluto]

Ironically the ac is COMISSIONED to kill saints.

Kinda makes a point about wrath vs "we are not appointed to wrath"

We are appointed to the pretrib rapture.


So...it is irony that those left behind are IN A SENSE , keeping an appointment with wrath that need no be.

I was reading in hebrews today where ,once again,the arrival of Jesus ,or looking to it,is forefront.

(I have to believe he is coming before satan,in order to say it with any conviction)

Notice that postribs have no "soon coming" confession to their walk.
Of course that would be missing....they don't believe it.!!!

If as you say Jesus is coming before Satan then please explain Matthew 24:15 where it says, "Therefore when you SEE the Abomination of Desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand and what does Jesus say to do?

Jesus says to "flee/run." Why does He tell us this if we are going to be raptured? Secondly, since you brought up Hebrews 9:28 where it explicitly says, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

It says He will appear a second time, so if this is the rapture then what do you call it when He appears over all the earth bringing judgment at Matthew 24:30-31, a third time?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[John146]

If as you say Jesus is coming before Satan then please explain Matthew 24:15 where it says, "Therefore when you SEE the Abomination of Desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand and what does Jesus say to do?

Jesus says to "flee/run." Why does He tell us this if we are going to be raptured? Secondly, since you brought up Hebrews 9:28 where it explicitly says, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

It says He will appear a second time, so if this is the rapture then what do you call it when He appears over all the earth bringing judgment at Matthew 24:30-31, a third time?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Flee where? From Judea to the mountains.

Matthew 24 is not the rapture but describes the tribulation and the second coming. The passage is dealing with the Jews. The Church is not yet founded.

 

[Absolutely]

You know this is really getting old by you guys and this "wrath" thing. Of course God has destined us for wrath because were His children. Did you read the context before you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:9? I don't think did j146. Look at vs2 (and I'm going to parapharse the verses). "For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord will come like a thief."

Vs3, "When they say peace and safety then destruction will come." Who do you think the "THEY" is j146 who will not escape" Escape what j146? Vs4, "But you brethren, (meaning Christians) are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." In other words the ones that are in darkness are the unsaved people.

Vs5, We are sons of light and sons of day/saved. We are not of night or darkness/the unsaved. Vs6-8, We should live soberly and put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. Vs9, FOR (or because) God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUG OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

The clear context of vs9 is showing us that the ones destined for God's wrath/judgment are those who are not saved. Now, this is backed up by Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5 and in the OT Nahum 1:2. Please read the verses. In short what you have done j146 is attaching chapter 5 to the rapture at 1 Thess chapter 4:13-18.

Now, I have noticed that no one has used Luke 21 as a cross reference to Matthew 24. At Luke 21:34, "Be on guard that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Vs35, for (or because) IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." It seems to me that the great tribulation at least according to this verse includes everbody on the face of the earth.

So wher's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?

Did you notice that these events are spoken of in terms of the "last day." And at 1 Corinthinas 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. Also read verses 53-58.

Now, here is my last question? At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when the Lord comes and according to those verses "in a twinkling of an eye" are we raptured to heaven or are we coming to the earth?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Not what that says.
You changed it.
Luke 21
WORTHY TO ESCAPE, not" have strength"

But i see the need to do the changing

 

[Absolutely]

If as you say Jesus is coming before Satan then please explain Matthew 24:15 where it says, "Therefore when you SEE the Abomination of Desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand and what does Jesus say to do?

Jesus says to "flee/run." Why does He tell us this if we are going to be raptured? Secondly, since you brought up Hebrews 9:28 where it explicitly says, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

It says He will appear a second time, so if this is the rapture then what do you call it when He appears over all the earth bringing judgment at Matthew 24:30-31, a third time?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

they did flee.
Ad 70

 

[Melach]

Secondly, since you brought up Hebrews 9:28 where it explicitly says, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

It says He will appear a second time, so if this is the rapture then what do you call it when He appears over all the earth bringing judgment at Matthew 24:30-31, a third time?

bluto has a point here. its the return. not a return. the parousia. the bodily presence. one coming has to all jive with it

 

[bluto]

Flee where? From Judea to the mountains.

Matthew 24 is not the rapture but describes the tribulation and the second coming. The passage is dealing with the Jews. The Church is not yet founded.

Oh boy, here we go! When I do Bible Study, I really do Bible Study. I "hang" on every word, look up the meaning of words, read the context before and after the verse or verses in question and ask God the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of my heart. Now, I am not saying that some of you don't study the Bible intensively but it should be notied that many of the answers are verses or verses pulled out of context because you are not comparing scripture with scripture and not paying attention to what is being said.

You just stated that Matthew 24 is not the rapture and but it is describong the second coming. You also said "The Church is not yet founded." Contraire my friend, the Church is founded and do you know how I know? Just read the question that "four" of the disciples had ask Jesus. There were only four of them according to Mark 13:3, look it up.

Matthew 24:3, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. Tell us, (Tell us what can be found at verses 1-2.) (1) WHEN will these things be, (2) and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The term "coming" (Greek, parousia) refers to both arrival and presence. The second part of the question, "and the end of the world" the Greek word is aion, "age" period, era"

The following is what people fail to notice, like you failed to notice. Jesus DID NOT answer these questions according to a chronological sequence, but topically. Hwe wanted His followers to be more concerned about being ready for His coming than exactly when it woud occur. This is the idea that the Apostle Paul was stressing in his writings at 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

You know, be sober, be alert, were sons of light. Put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. And here at Matthew 24:4, "See to it that no one misleads you." In fact, (now that I think about it) please notice what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy2:15-18, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling ACCURATELY the word of truth."

Vs16, "But avoid worldy and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangerene, Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they have upset the faith of some." In other words, look how upset Paul was because a couple of guys were speading around that the resurrection had already occured. My point is that we should be extremely careful on what we say and that's why Paul told Timothy to "handle accurately the word of truth."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto