What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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presidente said:
You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.
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Plot twist
Ironically it was the 5 foolish that missed the wedding bus.

It is the unprepared that stay and get martyred.
 
Absolutely said:
At the second coming ,rev 19, Jesus comes WITH the saints.

No white horse uturn
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There are passages that tell of Christ returning with holy angels as well. But I Thessalonians 4 says that the saints will me the Lord in the air at His coming/parousia. Why would it be called his coming/parousia if he does not actually come here? Where does the Bible teach that Jesus makes a u-turn? For the saints, it says that they will meet the Lord in the air.
 
Absolutely said:
See,thats the thing.

I am to die now. At my rebirth.
Dying is basic doctrine.
I am to settle it now. Martyrdom is the highest honor. It is my win<>win.
They kill me...i go home...i am promoted.

Ironically martyrdom is the easy way out.

The foolish get the easy way,they were those that did not keep the fire burning.
They were lazy in worship and dedication,and diligence.
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So are you calling Stephen, James, and probably 11 or so of the 12 apostles (counting Matthias not Judas)... and Paul... lazy, and are you saying they took the easy way out?

You really should think before you type.

That is Gods goodness,that the foolish virgins get a higher reward.
You seem to key off of some "fairness" of heaven.

Remember one thing,heaven aint fair.

The parable of the workers.
Those working 30 minutes were paid the same as those working all day.

The foolish virgins are martyred and recieve a higher reward.
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You can spin the parable of the virgins in a pretrib way like pretribbers do with other passages. Do you have any scripture that actually teachs pre-trib? The rapture/resurrection event occurs at Jesus coming in I Thes. 4. Do you have any Biblical evidence that Jesus will come back multiple times? Or why do you think the saints will be raptured before Jesus comes back instead of what the Bible teaches?
 
Absolutely said:
Jesus is king now.

I have shown paulines that in the past.

Not sure why they teach that or the efforts to nullify the non pauline books.
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Where is Christ right now? Is He seated at the right hand of the Father? Do you believe in the promised earthly kingdom of Israel?
 
presidente said:
There are passages that tell of Christ returning with holy angels as well. But I Thessalonians 4 says that the saints will me the Lord in the air at His coming/parousia. Why would it be called his coming/parousia if he does not actually come here? Where does the Bible teach that Jesus makes a u-turn? For the saints, it says that they will meet the Lord in the air.
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If Jesus doesn’t make a “ u-turn” then the Church does. Christ catches us up in the clouds only to bring us back down to earth.😉
 
John146 said:
If Jesus doesn’t make a “ u-turn” then the Church does. Christ catches us up in the clouds only to bring us back down to earth.😉
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Since Paul wrote that the Lord would descend from heaven, doesn't it make more sense than to say that Christ appears in the sky then returns to heaven?
 
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presidente said:
Since Paul wrote that the Lord would descend from heaven, doesn't it make more sense than to say that Christ appears in the sky then returns to heaven?
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It makes more sense that the Lord would meet us in the air to change us and then escort us into heaven. We could not enter into heaven on our own without being changed.
 
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Nehemiah6 said:
This is correct. And the judgments extend throughout the 70th week of Daniel (seven years) with the intensity increasing as time goes by. The Tribulation is a period of wrath -- God's wrath supplement with Satan's wrath. The Great Tribulation is such as has never been nor will ever be. And it will culminate in cataclysmic cosmic events such as cannot be imagined.

This entire period is reserved for the unbelieving and the ungodly. BUT GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US (BELIEVERS) TO WRATH BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION. That is why it is critical that Christians understand the full meaning (and scope) of the finished work of Christ, and the penal substitutionary atonement which was accomplished at the cross.
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Well said!
 
TooFastTurtle said:
I love reading your posts brother. Notice also during the first trumpet it says all green grass was burned up, that will be a disaster when it comes to agriculture, going to be very tough surviving that alone.

Post-tribbers play down the severity of the trumpets and vials. I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".

When confronted with the Darby nonsense, I say the first post-tribbers in Church history were the ones who were telling the Thessalonians something that shook their minds and Paul had to send them a letter to correct them saying the day of the Lord is not yet, do not let your hearts be troubled. Why would their minds be troubled about the Second Coming? It would be a moment to rejoice, not something to be shaken up about.

I do not base my faith on the Church fathers, but even in there you can find some imminent return passages and a few plain statements that says Church is caught up from this prior to the tribulation. Anyone who is interested can google the quotes.

Dispensational pre-trib doctrine is like carefully organizing verses putting Bible truths in the right time period and looking at who is spoken to. That is why the so much quoted Matthew 24:29-31 is in no way proof against the pre-trib Rapture.
This event is the same as in Isaiah, where a trumpet is blown and the elect are gathered, no mention of a resurrection, no mention of dead in Christ rising first, they are gathered to Jerusalem not to the Father's house in heaven.

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer. The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation. Even Martin Luther struggled with understanding it, precisely because of his roman catholic background.

I notice an increase in interest to prophecy each time there is a revival happening and God is moving.
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I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".
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Ha! Just natural disasters!? Yeah, natural disasters on super steroids! Yeah, demonic beings resembling locusts with stings like scorpions always come out of the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth. It's a common event :rolleyes:

It Sounds like Hank Hanegraaff, who in one of books rifled off several of the plagues of wrath and called them hyperbole.
 
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John146 said:
1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, Philippians 3
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And John 14:1-3 :)

I was going to answer, but the question was to you, so I left it alone.

I truly don't understand why people ask the question of where the Bible teaches Jesus taking His church back to heaven. It is very plain to read and understand, regardless off one's belief of when this event takes place.

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"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
(John 14:1-3)

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (I Cor.15:51-53)

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." (I Thess.4:16-17)

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I know that you know all this John, but this is more for Presidente and others to read.

In John 14:1-3, we have Jesus stating that in His Father's house are many rooms. Then He says that He going to prepare places for us, which would be in the Father's house. Then He says, I will come back, so that we also can be where He is, which again, would be the Father's house. Therefore, regardless of one's timing of this event, at some point the Lord will return to get His church and take them back to the Father's house. The post tribulation belief does not allow for this to take place.

Both I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:16-17, is the detailed account of the promise made in John 14:1-3 when the Lord comes to get His church.
 
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John146 said:
Israel shall be saved out of it, not from it.

Jeremiah 30
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

That day, the time of Jacob’s trouble, is a day of wrath.

Zephaniah 1
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The Church is not appointed for this time of wrath, the time of Jacob’s trouble. The Church has obtained salvation through Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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You know this is really getting old by you guys and this "wrath" thing. Of course God has destined us for wrath because were His children. Did you read the context before you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:9? I don't think did j146. Look at vs2 (and I'm going to parapharse the verses). "For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord will come like a thief."

Vs3, "When they say peace and safety then destruction will come." Who do you think the "THEY" is j146 who will not escape" Escape what j146? Vs4, "But you brethren, (meaning Christians) are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." In other words the ones that are in darkness are the unsaved people.

Vs5, We are sons of light and sons of day/saved. We are not of night or darkness/the unsaved. Vs6-8, We should live soberly and put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. Vs9, FOR (or because) God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUG OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

The clear context of vs9 is showing us that the ones destined for God's wrath/judgment are those who are not saved. Now, this is backed up by Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5 and in the OT Nahum 1:2. Please read the verses. In short what you have done j146 is attaching chapter 5 to the rapture at 1 Thess chapter 4:13-18.

Now, I have noticed that no one has used Luke 21 as a cross reference to Matthew 24. At Luke 21:34, "Be on guard that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Vs35, for (or because) IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." It seems to me that the great tribulation at least according to this verse includes everbody on the face of the earth.

So wher's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?

Did you notice that these events are spoken of in terms of the "last day." And at 1 Corinthinas 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. Also read verses 53-58.

Now, here is my last question? At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when the Lord comes and according to those verses "in a twinkling of an eye" are we raptured to heaven or are we coming to the earth? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
bluto said:
You know this is really getting old by you guys and this "wrath" thing. Of course God has destined us for wrath because were His children. Did you read the context before you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:9? I don't think did j146. Look at vs2 (and I'm going to parapharse the verses). "For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord will come like a thief."

Vs3, "When they say peace and safety then destruction will come." Who do you think the "THEY" is j146 who will not escape" Escape what j146? Vs4, "But you brethren, (meaning Christians) are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." In other words the ones that are in darkness are the unsaved people.

Vs5, We are sons of light and sons of day/saved. We are not of night or darkness/the unsaved. Vs6-8, We should live soberly and put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. Vs9, FOR (or because) God has not destined us for wrath, BUT FOR OBTAINING SALVATION THROUG OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

The clear context of vs9 is showing us that the ones destined for God's wrath/judgment are those who are not saved. Now, this is backed up by Romans 1:18, Romans 2:5 and in the OT Nahum 1:2. Please read the verses. In short what you have done j146 is attaching chapter 5 to the rapture at 1 Thess chapter 4:13-18.

Now, I have noticed that no one has used Luke 21 as a cross reference to Matthew 24. At Luke 21:34, "Be on guard that your hearts may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap. Vs35, for (or because) IT WILL COME UPON ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF ALL THE EARTH." It seems to me that the great tribulation at least according to this verse includes everbody on the face of the earth.

So wher's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?

Did you notice that these events are spoken of in terms of the "last day." And at 1 Corinthinas 15:52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. Also read verses 53-58.

Now, here is my last question? At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 when the Lord comes and according to those verses "in a twinkling of an eye" are we raptured to heaven or are we coming to the earth? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Correction in my second sentence. It should read, "Of course God HAS NOT destined us for wrath. My mistake! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Ahwatukee said:
Hi John,

Did you mean that Israel is the wife of God the Father and the church is the bride of Christ.

Israel is always referred to as the "wife" of God. Where the church is the "bride," i.e. in the betrothal. The wedding of the Lamb will take place after His bride has been resurrected and caught up
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and the bride will design and engineer the New Jerusalem...this is one of the rewards that the bride will receive...how exciting! … can't wait!
 
bluto said:
So wher's the rapture, or should I say when did the rapture happen? It didn't! Read Luke 21:36, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

So why do we need to pray for strength if were not going to be here? Secondly, if were going to be raptured I thought we will be seated for the marriage supper of the Lamb, not stand before the Son of Man?
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Luke 21:36 is saying we won't be here? What is your point? Those who are watching are worthy to ESCAPE all these things that are about to take place.
 
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