I think rebellious children get stoned too. That should solve a lot of discipline problems!
Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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I think rebellious children get stoned too. That should solve a lot of discipline problems!
I agree that following Jesus is the only way to the father.
Once we become a Christian, does that mean we no longer look to the law for wisdom?
We don't have to follow the physical requirements of the law. At the same time, I think it is good to look to see what the law says about things. For example
1 Corinthians 9: 9. For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it for the oxen that God cares, 10. or does he say it assuredly for our sake? Yes, it was written for our sake, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should partake of his hope.
Sounds good!
The only small thing I would note is that as I read the scriptures, the old covenant, or the old testament, was still in force throughout Jesus' life and ministry up until the time when he says
This is the New covenant in my blood.
I think it's unlikely that the Israelites captured by the Assyrians stayed mostly intact and migrated up into Denmark, etc. But I suppose it's possible.To give a little background of "world history" (geographically speaking) for credibility purposes, as I have come to understand it, concerning "the idea?" The tribes that migrated north into Denmark, Britain, and eventually to, not only the U.S. of A., but Aussie Land as well?
Migrated over a mountain range in the Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia areas, known as the "Caucasus" mountains? Were "later" called "caucasians", by those scattered in a more southerly direction through Europe, Italy, Spain, etc. (get the "drift?"
Some even "earned the moniker" of being "labelled" "Saxons." Sons of Issac, or "Issac's Sons."
There must have been a "parting of the ways" between those who believed in "gods", from those who believed/followed the "God of Issac", further northwards to Norway, Sweden, Finland, and probably Iceland, as well.
By the time these "tribes" migrated? It stands to reason that "followers of nimrod", had already established themselves in these areas, after the "flood of Noah." (tower of Babel incident) Hence, the "paganism" that stems from the "nordic regions."
As I read the scriptures, when Israelites live among the gentiles, and live as gentiles, and especially if they stop circumcising on the 8th day, they cease to be Israelites.
They become just regular gentiles. Of course, they can convert to Judaism or Christianity.
Numbers 23: 9. For from the top of the rocks I see him. From the hills I see him. Behold, it is
a people that dwells alone,
and shall not be numbered among the nations.
This is very interesting!
Jesus didn't say "don't stone her because I came to abolish the Law" or "don't stone her because the Law will soon be abolished". The Lord said they could stone her, but the one without sin should be the first to cast a stone.
My interpretation is this:
Jesus not only obeyed the Law, but He also amended it, bringing it to a higher level.
According to David Bivin FULFILL means more than TO OBEY, TO KEEP, TO EXECUTE, TO FINISH, etc. The scholar says that FULFILL and ABOLISH are idioms meaning respectively: "to interpret correctly" and "to misinterpret".
So, Jesus was reinterpreting the Law and the Pharisees accused Him of misinterpreting it, which, in their minds, would ultimately result in the destruction of the Torah.
I think Jesus didn't remove anything from the Law regarding stoning; He just amended it by adding a new requirement: "the one without sin must be the first". Theoretically Jesus didn't abolish stoning, but in practice He did because no one is without sin.
Now, I ask a question: Why didn't Jesus Himself throw the first stone? He was without sin and He was still under the Law!
O' dear Dan, I'm afraid the passage in 1 Cor 9-14 is not what you think. It is about being paid for the work we do. Because the ox is not muzzled it can eat the corn, in that way it gets paid in kind.
In verses 11-12 Paul says, "If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap material benefits (payment) from you?"
If others enjoy this right over you, don't we have a stronger claim?
In verse 13 he says, "those who work in the Temple get their food from the Temple and that those who serve at the altar get their share of its offerings." They get paid.
He concludes by saying, "In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel." Paul is saying to pay those who minister to you.
Jesus said, "This is the New covenant in my blood."
Shortly after that Jesus died and rose again, conquering death and sin and so fulfilling the law.
Old Testament law was ended and God's grace was shed abroad. Now we live under grace and not under law.
I like that interpretation.
Jesus gave his disciples the power of binding and loosing, so it would follow that Jesus himself had the ability to amend the law.
Matthew 18: 18. Most certainly I tell you, whatever things you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever things you release on earth will have been released in heaven.
Maybe something he wrote in The Sand would explain why he didn't begin the stoning.
(another possible explanation of the story is that it isn't actually part of the Gospel of John. It is not found in many early manuscripts, in a few early manuscripts it occurs in Luke. So a possible scenario is something like there was an ancient pastor who was preparing his sermon and wanted to include this story the way pastors do. He wrote it in the margins of his copy of John. Then the next person that made a copy from that copy included the story in the main body.)
That's exactly right, Paul is talking about paying those who minister to you.
And he bases it on a concept in the law. Does this mean we do everything the law says, and we take the law literally? No. And it also doesn't mean that we follow every concept in the law.
But,
Psalm 19: 7. The law of the Lord is good, giving new life to the soul: the witness of the Lord is certain, giving wisdom to the foolish. 8. The orders of the Lord are right, making glad the heart: the rule of the Lord is holy, giving light to the eyes.
I don't recall of the top of my head what the law of Moses says about paying wages, it is getting later here and I am tired. But Jesus who gives us the law of God is very clear about paying the labourer.
Paul quotes Deu 25:4. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
It follows this:
Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. (Deu 25:3 KJV)
Old Testament law troubles me. Here are a couple of examples
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deu 24:16 KJV)
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
(Deu 25:2-3 KJV)
Jesus would never condone killing or beating. I am sure in my own mind that the god of the Old Testament is not my God, neither is it the Father of Jesus.
(Lights out time.)
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deu 24:16 KJV)
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
(Deu 25:2-3 KJV)
Jesus would never condone killing or beating. I am sure in my own mind that the god of the Old Testament is not my God, neither is it the Father of Jesus.
(Lights out time.)
Yes, I agree that Jesus amended the Law.
Binding and loosing (like ABOLISH and FULFILL) are also idioms.
Binding and loosing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Binding and loosing is originally a Jewish Mishnaic phrase also mentioned in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage, to bind and to loose simply means to forbid by an indisputable authority and to permit by an indisputable authority.[1] The Targum to a particular Psalm[2] implies that these actions were considered to be as effectual as the spell of an enchanter.[1]
Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb FOR ALL ISRAEL. Malachi 4:4 “
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5
...All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Romans 2:1-16
...For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God... Romans 8:1-17
The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10
Love is the command and the message we heard from the beginning which sums up all the laws given by the one LAWGIVER and Judge who is able to save and to destroy.. It is written on the hearts of flesh and not on hardened as stone tablets of the heart. So, why would God write the law on/in our hearts and put it on/in our minds if we can't keep it and meet it's righteous requirements? If the one LAWGIVER and JUDGE dwells in you, is He telling you to stop keeping the law that He has written on/in your heart? Would you now say that His gifts and calling are irrevocable? (See Romans chapter 11 & Hebrews 8:10, 10:16)
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:6-7
It's quite awkward but I find it necessary to ask this, "Do you have a law written on/in your heart? If yes, did you receive it from the one LAWGIVER and JUDGE? If no, who and what's in your heart? Who is your authority and does He have laws for His kingdom? Can you honestly say to His face that you don't need to keep His laws anymore?
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12
Submission to the Authorities Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:1-2
Sorry for the long post and some few questions.
The word/s of the Master is a law to His servants, written on/in their hearts.
Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and walk in Love.
GOD IS good and His LOVE endures forever. Amen.
Yes, most people don't realize that when Jesus was preaching in the flesh, it was still under the Old Testament.
But one thing you might not realized too was that the Jews had a one year extension from his Crucifixion to accept him as their Messiah, so the Law was still in force for that one year. Recall Jesus at the cross ask the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do?"
That was why, as the OP goes, the resurrected Jesus never told the 11 that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross. In fact, he told them in the Matthew's version of the GC, to remind the Jews to "obey everything that I have commanded you". That was why Peter and the other Jews continue to follow the Law even in early Acts.
The reasons for the 1 year extension was given in the parable of the fig tree and the gardener in Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
That one year extension expired when Stephen was stoned.
Jesus had to stay under the law because He was going to have to go back "to Noah" , to offer all those who had died under the law, grace. He couldn't really do that if He had not been under it himself.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
I believe this poor woman was "set up", to take the fall. Her "only crime", being she was a "political/religious spy", involved in some "power struggle", involving those who wished her taken "out of their mix", because she knew too much! Or, perhaps, she was a "paid operative"(being more likely the story here) by one or more of these guys, to "destroy the credibility", of the guy she was having intimate relations with.
Now Jesus, perceiving that which was in their hearts, as He oft times did, Seen the "games they were playing" with the LAW! And, how "far" the "wild olive tree" had "infiltrated and corrupted" these people.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Is as true NOW, as it was "since the fall of Adam n Eve!"
Tis AS sad NOW, as it was THEN!
ALAS! The "games" people play! Eh?
Now Jesus, perceiving that which was in their hearts, as He oft times did, Seen the "games they were playing" with the LAW! And, how "far" the "wild olive tree" had "infiltrated and corrupted" these people.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Is as true NOW, as it was "since the fall of Adam n Eve!"
Tis AS sad NOW, as it was THEN!
ALAS! The "games" people play! Eh?
It isn't just in the gospels you look for truth but take all that you find God telling us and then make your decision. Look at the differences in the two laws. When we come to Christ we are made a new creature. Dead to the flesh, made Spiritual. No longer Jew or Gentile, but Christian. We don't go from law to no law. Jesus came to get rid of what was contrary to us. The blood of Jesus wasn't shed to "add to" the old laws. All that does is cause confusion, as your post proves. That isn't Gods way. But God answers this question with extreme clarity.
The Law of Moses vs the law of Christ
Are we under any sort of Law? Christ gave us laws. Paul was. Revelation is clear on who will be accepted in the end times and that should be a good indication of what it would take before that.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
First off, you must get right the distinction between the laws God wrote on the two tablets of stone (good indication of how solid they are, and He did it not just once but twice) and the law given Moses to write. The stone tablets INside the ark, Moses on the side
Gods voiced to the people, God voiced to Moses only. 2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them. Gods commandments has no curses, the law of Moses does. Daniel 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psalm 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Psalm 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Men may say they "part of a unit" but Gods Word divides them as to who, what, where, when and how they were written. If they were a part of the law of Moses, why did they need to be RE written by God?
Law of Moses
School master, shadow of what was to come, ministry of death and condemnation, heavy yoke, burden, under, bound to, break one break them all, cursed, temporary, till John, waxing old ready to vanish, animal sacrifice, blood sacrifice, burnt offerings, ceremonies, rituals, priests duties, priests talk to God for us (veil), could not forgive, no gifts,
Law of Christ
Where the schoolmaster was leading us to, the fullness of what the shadow was predicting, ministry of life and freedom from sin, light yoke, no a burden, grace, freedom from, break on repent, curse taken away, sealed with His blood, New - to take over that what was old and ready to vanish, His sacrifice, His blood, Him our High Pries, the veil rent no need for earthly priest to talk to God, repentance and forgiveness, gifts of salvation and righteousness,
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Alright, how did you arrive at this belief? You don't think it was set for an example of "reading the thoughts and intents of our hearts" and as an example of the forgiveness that "might" be found in the new covenant to come? "political/religious spy"???I believe this poor woman was "set up", to take the fall. Her "only crime", being she was a "political/religious spy", involved in some "power struggle", involving those who wished her taken "out of their mix", because she knew too much! Or, perhaps, she was a "paid operative"(being more likely the story here) by one or more of these guys, to "destroy the credibility", of the guy she was having intimate relations with.
Now Jesus, perceiving that which was in their hearts, as He oft times did, Seen the "games they were playing" with the LAW! And, how "far" the "wild olive tree" had "infiltrated and corrupted" these people.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Is as true NOW, as it was "since the fall of Adam n Eve!"
Tis AS sad NOW, as it was THEN!
ALAS! The "games" people play! Eh?
Does this prove that those who accept Christ AND are made Christians, be they "gentile or scattered sheep or whomsoever will" before that ARE THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?