Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?
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For Dibby 53 (In the event you did not happen on this in a different thread)
Apologetics Press
Flaws In Calvinism
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of his thinking have been summarized under the acrostic TULIP.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality. Bible Responses
Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”
Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”
Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”
Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”
Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”
Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”
Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation. Bible Responses
Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”
Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”
Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”
Apologetics Press
Flaws In Calvinism
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of his thinking have been summarized under the acrostic TULIP.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”
Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”
Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”
Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”
Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”
Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”
Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”
Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”
Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”
Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”
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Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Bible Responses1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”
Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”
1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”
Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”
Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”
John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”
Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”
Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”
Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”
Copyright 2017 original publisher, Apologetics Press https://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=5387#
Copied and Pasted with permission
Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself 
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How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
.How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
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Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself .
How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
.How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
If you read the scriptures you will find you can make just about any doctrine out there appear to conform to scripture.
That's what John Calvin did.
If you go to a Bible verse search engine and enter the search criteria, Total Depravity, you find results in singular scripture form. Like HERE
If one reads those scriptures in line it appears that Calvin was absolutely right about the state of humanity from the before even the creation of the world and the first people. Which is what Calvinism teaches. That God predestined what Calvinist tenets encapsulate as God's will and word, before God created anything at all.
But those verses are singular excerpts from the books and chapters in both the Old and New Testaments. They are not in context. (Context= the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning. )
Therein someone could read that entire list of scriptures and feel quite upset to think everything is predetermined and as such they may not be one of the Elect of God.
Because if you think about it? When there are over a billion people on the planet who identify as saved by God's grace, Christian, then there are either over 1 billion Calvinists on the planet, or when we think of God's predetermining all things, as a perfect all knowing Father, we cannot invalidate His capacity to intend the full meaning of His promise when He inspired the Book of John chapter 3 and verse 16.
Whosoever, eradicates the idea of the exclusive predetermined Irresistibly augmented formerly Depraved individual let to be saved by God.
Whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life, tells us that the individual is imbued with the capacity to arrive at a conclusion Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
Whosoever, which is the formal word reflective of whoever, is a relative pronoun and means, the person or people who; any person who. (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/whoever)
The Elect, as is defined in the predestination of the saved in some denominational teachings, refers rather than to any person instead identifies, that one , the person, the singled out. And precludes the broad potential for anyone to receive salvation, in the context of this discussion.
The inspired word of God was not written to those that are not already his eternally saved children and the scriptures are God's instructions to his children as to how he wants them to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. It also informs his eternally saved children how they were eternally saved by Christ's death upon the cross to pay for their sins. The Gospel is not the cause of our eternal salvation, but the explanation of how we were eternally saved. God did not predestine man's fall. Man brought about his own fall by the free will that God gave him. The only thing that God predestined was that his elect was to be adopted by his Son by paying the price of the adoption on the cross. God choose his children, Jesus payed the price of the adoption and the final phase of the adoption will be when Christ comes back to gather his elect and take them home. We follow the same process when we adopt children here on earth. Parents does the choosing, not the children. Parents pay the legal fees. Parents pick them up and take them home. We, as children of God, have no choice in the matter. God has given mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but the choice of man's eternal destination is by God's grace and not man's choice.
Dibby has learnt to consider and think for himself .
How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
.How about this idea? That while God knows the broad sweep of his plan through time, He does not know the outcome of every little detail and decision. That He can only love because He doesnt know every little decision.....He loves us into his kingdom. It is a true invitation....and when we are ready to respond ( like the prodigal son) we will. To me to say that God is all knowing may simply mean that he is infinite in his capacity to know; not that he knows every future decision, thus negating freedom. There is a wedding to go to; the invites are out; but he is not certain who will turn up when. It seems God can only really experience genuine JOY if he can be surprised by an invitation response saying: YES, I will come! .....Just an idea.
I don't believe God is degraded. In what way? It surely degrades God if we believe he knows every single detail and thing before they happen for the whole of time? He cannot love properly since each and every response to us is predetermined, by behaviour he already knows must come to pass. All praise to him is simply what will happen anyway; no spontaneous outpouring of gratitude. No joy at a surprising response to his love. His life must be one of unutterable boredom. Even "the elect" are simply a response that he already knows. And since all that happens is already known, of what real value is a sacrifice by his son? It bares no cost since the one being paid is expecting it to be paid; its already happened. It is just being played out in one great big puppet show...in which even the audience cannot spontaneously enjoy!
Perhaps God knows our thoughts as we live them, he can see our likely outcomes if we pursue certain paths and can provide help and warnings not to go down certain avenues, or to pursue other ones. He knows our ultimate end is in him.....but the journey is ours to freely choose. He has Faith in his own love to deliver us safely, but the response to that is ours to make. The holy spirit is secretly arranging all things in an unfathomable way to bring the will of God to pass. So there is a big plan behind the little plans, so to speak, in which we may all play our parts. Its mysteriously wonderful! Freely planned and planned freely. Or, in God's ultimate plan we are doomed to make choices.
Perhaps God knows our thoughts as we live them, he can see our likely outcomes if we pursue certain paths and can provide help and warnings not to go down certain avenues, or to pursue other ones. He knows our ultimate end is in him.....but the journey is ours to freely choose. He has Faith in his own love to deliver us safely, but the response to that is ours to make. The holy spirit is secretly arranging all things in an unfathomable way to bring the will of God to pass. So there is a big plan behind the little plans, so to speak, in which we may all play our parts. Its mysteriously wonderful! Freely planned and planned freely. Or, in God's ultimate plan we are doomed to make choices.
God saw by his foreknowledge that none would seek him, no, not one Psalms 53:2. That is why God choose an elect people and had Christ to pay for their sins as the adoption price and according to John 6:38 all of those he died for will live in heaven without the lose of even one. According to 1 Cor 2:14, man cannot discern spiritual things until he has been born of the Spirit. Eph 2.
I love to discuss the scriptures with anybody, as long as we can be civil about it. The text in 1 Cor says the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. A person understands the things of the Spirit by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him. The natural man, in my understanding of the scriptures, is unteachable about the things of the Spirit because they have to be spiritually discerned.
