Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[wokinluv]

Um

Actually what he did was say if you have not repented you have no faith. So he does believe one has to repent. (So once again you are seen as untruthful, because you refvuse to sit down and listen to what I have to say.)

When you sinned against your father did you go beg him forgiveness? Did you have to get on your knees every time you sinned and repent? Or did you go to him and confess your sin to him. And did he say thank you son. If you did not repent I was going to have to remove you from my family? Or did he take you in his arms, say he loved you and you were already forgive (then impose whatever punishment fit the crime?)

How do you correct your kids? Do you love them unconditionally. Or are they required to repent and beg forgiveness as a condition of staying in your family?

Now ask yourself. Why would God be any different?

There is NO real difference between working at the law and works of the law.

One describes an action, working.

The other describes the noun, what they are, works of the law.

A person is working at the law and the result of that is works of the law.



But that is neither here nor there.

Paul doesn't separate the law into compartments and say "It is ok to work at this part but the Lord Jesus has abolished that Part".

The Lord Jesus Himself doesn't separate the law into compartments and say "I came to fulfill part of the law but the rest is on you".


So I would say this is your own construct and I suppose you must show how you came to this conclusion that the 10 commandments, sacrificing animals, and Moses instructions could be separated and abolished separately while some could still stand on their own.

I categorically disagree with that stance, btw, which I am sure you already know.... Which is the reason it is so difficult for us to have conversations on the bible and Christianity, imo. You have made Christianity about abolishing 2/3 of the law but continuing to work at the 10 commandments. IMO Christianity is ALL about our blessing in Christ and the WHOLE LAW, moses, sacrifices, and 10 c's are all finished for Christians.

My opinion is that it is only by the Fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT that the 10 commandments are obeyed. Not by people who look back to the 10 commandments to work at them in their own understanding.

In other words, the 10 commandments aren't for Christians. The Holy Spirit is for Christians. And the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit will not cause us to be ashamed before God.

But peoples work at the 10 commandments WILL cause them to be ashamed before God.


I tried to say all this without being accusatory. I hope I succeded in showing my extreme disagreement with your premise without including any kind of offense to you personally, if that can be done.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:12

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5

For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

In my simple mind, I believe that being lawless means disobedience of the law and/or having no law or the rejection of the law.

Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load. Galatians 6:2-5

Love One Another
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:11,23-24

Love is the fulfilment of the law. (Romans 13:8-14)

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Walk in Love.

God's love endures forever.

 

[wokinluv]

IF, SOMETHING CAN BE LOST, IT MUST BE EARNED????

I have a bird and I love that that cute little bird and because of that love, I took her out of the cage and placed her on my hands hands and she flew away. I felt sad but my sadness turned to joy knowing that I set her free.

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

 

[DeighAnn]

I have a bird and I love that that cute little bird and because of that love, I took her out of the cage and placed her on my hands hands and she flew away. I felt sad but my sadness turned to joy knowing that I set her free.

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.


My Reply

Bless your heart

 

[DeighAnn]

We don't know what God will do in the end and who knows, might decide to save everyone ever in some way surpassing our understanding, even though it would be a rope to us to hang ourselves if the world knew it now, so it is not being plainly taught in the Scriptures. Who knows, except God? I'm focusing on my own salvation and He will work out His justice and mercies.

God is very specific what He will do in the end. It will be a day of Judgment. Eternal life or lake of fire. Choose life or die. No evil will pass through.

 

[DeighAnn]

If one part of the bargain is not held up then the whole covenant is annulled. One party can't just decide to change the details of the covenant at their whim.

Isn't that like OSAS? One party can't just change their mind and the promises stay the same. Jesus side is for sure, that much is for sure, it's that free will side that is so unpredictable

 

[DeighAnn]

Well, if it is not EARNED, then it is GIVEN.
And the Scripture states the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE.
So, is salvation earned, or is it given?

Oh, it was you. So, could you please tell me where the Irrevocable gifts from God are for those other than the elect?

 

[SoulWeaver]

Oh, it was you. So, could you please tell me where the Irrevocable gifts from God are for those other than the elect?

I let it slide two times but from now on I'll just post a picture every time you twist what I said.
Either I will just post straw men meme to you, or you will engage and we will actually have an honest conversation.
That's not what I said. Try again.

 

[DeighAnn]

I let it slide two times but from now on I'll just post a picture every time you twist what I said.
Either I will just post straw men meme to you, or you will engage and we will actually have an honest conversation.
That's not what I said. Try again.

Your question?
Well, if it is not EARNED, then it is GIVEN.
And the Scripture states the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE.
So, is salvation earned, or is it given?


So here is my reply
Given. Salvation is given as a gift. I think people read the other posts so it seemed more like a rhetorical question to me. I may be a little touchy as I have said that very thing no less that way tooo many times. But it does prove the point, that when you ask questions, posed with misinformation, confusion does take place. Just as intended I think.

So I would never stop you, you follow where ever the spirit leads.

So, now I am asking you a question about something you posted with the question. And the Scripture states the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE. Could you please tell me where this it directed at those other than Gods elect?

 

[NayborBear]

dude I am getting a little sick of your arrogant sarcasm. You refuse to sit and try to understand what I am trying to say, yet you think you have the right to judge me and call me out?

Before you start judging people. It would help for you to actually sit down and listen to what they are saying.

Just do you (and everyone who read what you just accused me of) The context of my words were working at the law to save themselves. According to the person I was responding to. It means doing levitical works of the law. My attempt ws to show that people also use obedience to commands to justify themselves (we see this in the NT also.

But for some reason, you have avendetta against me, So you have to nit pick everything I say, so you continue to attack with this nonsense that you believe I am saying this, when in reality I am saying that. And you do not do it to just me you do it to everyone who disagrees with you. Then you start attacking us for having an attitude, or not being christlike. Or haveing a tone in our voice.

Well right now I do have a tone, Because I am calling a spade what it is, a spade!

I tried to explain to you yesterday how the only difference in my opinion between our views is what we think empowers us to be obedient to God (the root of our disagreement) We both believe in obedience (I have never denied you really want to be obedient now have I?) but since you can not HEAR a word I say, you continually say I do not think obedience is necessary.

Well once again, YOUR WRONG!

If you can not set your PRIDE aside for a few minutes and liten to what people are tryign to tell you. I must ask, WHY ARE YOU HERE IN A BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM?

Because it is evident the last thing on your mind is true discussion of what people think the bible says.



My doctrine EMPOWERS people to keep Gods laws. it offers them the POWER to keep Gods laws. And it offers the MOTIVATION to keep gods laws.

It also offers FORGIVENESS for when we stumble and do not keep Gods laws (which we wiLL DO)

But of course you can not see this, BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO WIPE YOUR EYES SO YOU CAN SEE..

Which is something YOUR DOCTRINE does not offer. (Although you claim it does. I can not see it) Because your doctrine states th eblood of Christ is only good up to a certain point. After that, it has no power

SG is right!
Answer me this? WHO is GREATER? The "Father?" or The "Son?"
When you say the "blood of Christ" is good ONLY up to a certain point? You speak correctly! As it is when one goes unto the Father, after being confessed BY Christ TO the Father!
The Father's Authority SUPERSEDES Christ's blood! Did Jesus COME to earth of His OWN volition? Or, was Jesus SENT? Did Jesus TEACH on His OWN? Or did Jesus teach that which the Father told Jesus to say? And GOD'S Authority? SUPERCEDES ALL!
Ya see? Jesus was preaching the "Good News" concerning "The Kingdom" TO the Jews! In "parables", cuz the Jews were no BETTER off then their gentile counterparts!
Paul was preaching the "Good News" OF Jesus, TO the gentiles!
Paul COULDN'T elaborate concerning "The Kingdom", as it was too "meaty" for gentile ears to handle! Deferring, most of the "Good News", as "Mysteries!"

Should you wish to cease being "accused" of making absurd arguments?....

Should gentiles think they have a "corner on the market", when it comes to being hard hearted and stiff-necked?
Just take a "gander" of what "Jehovah The Lord God of Israel", the "Lord of Hosts the God of Israel" had to say about "His CHOSEN People Israel!"

 

[NayborBear]

In the hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

You are correct EG!
God "promised" the HOPE of Eternal life!
Didn't say He was GIVING it!
If God was giving eternal life? How come He set an Angel to keep Adam and Eve from eating from the "Tree of Life?"

 

[kerrykiwi]

It is rather clear from Paul's argument to the Galatians that a person is not saved by "works of the Law" but by faith. Paul even makes the argument that Abraham was justified before God not by his works but by faith in God who justifies him. The judaizers had come to the church in Galatia and introduced the teaching that faith in Christ was insufficient and needed to be accompanied by obedience to the Mosaic law in order to be justified. Paul addresses this when it comes to circumcision. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant people of God and the first sign of their obedience to the Mosaic law in order to be part of the covenant people. Paul points that out because to reintroduce it as a practice necessary for the church in Galatia is to put them and their salvation under threat. It was no longer based on Christ alone but Christ and their obedience. The gospel based on faith then was mixed with works. Paul makes it plain that a person is not saved by their works, by their effort, by their obedience but by the finished saving work of Christ and the faith of a person unites them to what Christ has done.

 

[DeighAnn]

SG is right!
Answer me this? WHO is GREATER? The "Father?" or The "Son?"
When you say the "blood of Christ" is good ONLY up to a certain point? You speak correctly! As it is when one goes unto the Father, after being confessed BY Christ TO the Father!
The Father's Authority SUPERSEDES Christ's blood! Did Jesus COME to earth of His OWN volition? Or, was Jesus SENT? Did Jesus TEACH on His OWN? Or did Jesus teach that which the Father told Jesus to say? And GOD'S Authority? SUPERCEDES ALL!
Ya see? Jesus was preaching the "Good News" concerning "The Kingdom" TO the Jews! In "parables", cuz the Jews were no BETTER off then their gentile counterparts!
Paul was preaching the "Good News" OF Jesus, TO the gentiles!
Paul COULDN'T elaborate concerning "The Kingdom", as it was too "meaty" for gentile ears to handle! Deferring, most of the "Good News", as "Mysteries!"

Should you wish to cease being "accused" of making absurd arguments?....

Should gentiles think they have a "corner on the market", when it comes to being hard hearted and stiff-necked?
Just take a "gander" of what "Jehovah The Lord God of Israel", the "Lord of Hosts the God of Israel" had to say about "His CHOSEN People Israel!"

It can't be seen or heard until a humbling repentance and a prayerful asking for the spiritual eyes to be opened. Do you see it as being that as close yet? May take a trip to Damascus...

 

[NayborBear]

Ok. You trust in your work.

I'll trust in the Lord.

I'm certain that He will complete what He has started and He will Do what He has Promised.

No? I hope "in my work!"

 

[SoulWeaver]

So here is my reply
Given. Salvation is given as a gift. I think people read the other posts so it seemed more like a rhetorical question to me. I may be a little touchy as I have said that very thing no less that way tooo many times. But it does prove the point, that when you ask questions, posed with misinformation, confusion does take place. Just as intended I think.

So I would never stop you, you follow where ever the spirit leads.

So, now I am asking you a question about something you posted with the question. And the Scripture states the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE. Could you please tell me where this it directed at those other than Gods elect?

Nowhere.
Only the elect are saved, and they obey Jesus, because they are the sheep.
More like, it's not what you do, it's who you are.
Your fruits/works are the proof and result of you faith in Jesus, who works in you (You don't strive, Jesus completes you).
None of us preaches "go out and do what you want". This is unregenerate men!
Such people did not "lose salvation"; they simply never got saved. They do not believe in Jesus, or they wouldn't be doing so.

The threads like these are so frustrating because none of us here is preaching another gospel. We are on same page.
No one of us here who believes OSAS says otherwise. Maybe some big fake churches do claim, that you can declare yourself a Christian and go do whatever and be saved. But none of us on CC subscribes to this nonsense. The only difference is that our group says that these people are unregenerate to begin with, while the anti-OSAS group says they "lost salvation". This is the point of the contention. We believe the gifts of God are irrevocable as per the Bible, thus you cannot lose the gift of salvation, and thus believe that these people have never been born of the Spirit.

 

[Whispered]

We don't know what God will do in the end and who knows, might decide to save everyone ever in some way surpassing our understanding, even though it would be a rope to us to hang ourselves if the world knew it now, so it is not being plainly taught in the Scriptures. Who knows, except God? I'm focusing on my own salvation and He will work out His justice and mercies.

Amen! Well said.
God is a merciful God. There's a discussion now on this board that you might of seen. It asks, why do so many Christians end up in Hell?
Very insightful points of view and scripture there.
There's an interesting verse that I think relates to what you say here. It is found in the Book of 1st Timothy and chapter 4.
I love this site that I discovered. You can pick any version of the Bible and cross compare versions in any scripture or a whole chapter of the Bible.
I like their option for the Mounce Reverse Interlinear because it is the Greek version with the English translation. The New Testament was originally written in Greek. I think it makes sense that they'd have this option there. This verse has been attributed to what some call heresy, which is just a word describing unorthodox teachings or beliefs but it sounds really bad, almost like the equivalent of blasphemy. I don't think it is all that though. See what you think of this verse and if it embraces what you've observed here.

1 Timothy 4:6 [n]If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, which hast been nourished up in the words of faith, and of good doctrine which thou hast continually [o]followed.
7 [p]But cast away profane, and old wives’ fables, [q]and exercise thyself unto [r]godliness.
8 [s]For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, which hath the promise of the life present, and of that that is to come.
9 [t]This is a true saying, and by all means worthy to be received.
10 For therefore we labor and are rebuked, because we trust in the living God, which is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.

Footnotes:

1. [n]1 Timothy 4:6 The conclusion with an exhortation to Timothy, to propound these things diligently to the Churches, which he had sucked of the Apostle, even in a manner from the teat.
2. [o]1 Timothy 4:6 Never departing from the side of it.
3. [p]1 Timothy 4:7 He setteth again true doctrine not only against that false and apostatical doctrine, but also against all vain and curious subtleties.
4. [q]1 Timothy 4:7 It is not only requisite that the minister of the word be sound in doctrine, but also that his life be godly and religious.
5. [r]1 Timothy 4:7 In the true serving of God.
6. 1 Timothy 4:8 Godliness consisteth in spiritual exercise, and not in outward austereness of life, which though it be something to be accounteth of, if it be rightly used, yet is it in no wise comparable with godliness: For it profiteth not of itself, but through the benefit of another, but this hath the promise both of the life present, and of that that is to come.
7. [t]1 Timothy 4:9 He goeth a little from his matter, and showeth that they which give themselves to godliness, although they are afflicted and reproached, are notwithstanding not to be counted miserable as other men are, because they are not afflicted for that cause that other men are, and the end of them both is far different one from the other. For how can God forsake his, which is bountiful even towards his enemies? And he willeth that this doctrine be well beaten into their heads.

I think the Book of John and chapter 3 verse 16 makes the plan of salvation and encapsulates God's grace perfectly. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but shall have eternal life. "

There are no conditions listed in that simple verse of truth and sacrifice of God's son. Whosoever believeth in Jesus shall not perish.

We have our names written in the book of life. The Father did this before we were created, the first of us, Adam & Eve. God knows all things and so when the Father put our names in the book, and Jesus said no one will take us from his hand when we are redeemed as a new creation in him, I take that to mean we can't even choose to leave that sacred palm. When Jesus says, no one, I believe that means even this one; me. And you too.
As you said, God knows who are saved in him. There are many who believe they are but are they? As you said again, only God knows.

 

[Whispered]

No? I hope "in my work!"

Aren't our good works something that the Holy Spirit inside us leads us unto? As evidence of our salvation, not proof tasks that insure we keep our salvation.

 

[DeighAnn]

Nowhere.
Only the elect are saved, and they obey Jesus, because they are the sheep.
More like, it's not what you do, it's who you are.
Your fruits/works are the proof and result of you faith in Jesus, who works in you (You don't strive, Jesus completes you).
None of us preaches "go out and do what you want". This is unregenerate men!
Such people did not "lose salvation"; they simply never got saved. They do not believe in Jesus, or they wouldn't be doing so.

The threads like these are so frustrating because none of us here is preaching another gospel. We are on same page.
No one of us here who believes OSAS says otherwise. Maybe some big fake churches do claim, that you can declare yourself a Christian and go do whatever and be saved. But none of us on CC subscribes to this nonsense. The only difference is that our group says that these people are unregenerate to begin with, while the anti-OSAS group says they "lost salvation". This is the point of the contention. We believe the gifts of God are irrevocable as per the Bible, thus you cannot lose the gift of salvation, and thus believe that these people have never been born of the Spirit.

I think I do understand what you believe. The gift isn't offered to anyone who hasn't already attained it therefore it can't be lost. Problem is that negates the whole freewill thing. And if it is given to all who have already attained and no one else, WHAT is the point of this whole exercise? Why doesn't God just wipe out the bad and let us move on already? You believe He already knows. If it isn't by what we do and it is all by what He does, ONCE again what is the point. It shouldn't be "to whomsoever will" it should be "to those I have already chosen and to the rest of you "Psyche", what a bummer, it was all set up before and really there is no free will, I chose for you. Or do I have that wrong? Maybe if someone would lay it all out, all together, that would help with the misunderstandings.

 

[Yahshua]

That's not really how covenants work. A covenant is like a contract where two parties agree to their ends of the bargain.

If one part of the bargain is not held up then the whole covenant is annulled. One party can't just decide to change the details of the covenant at their whim.

I wrote this a few days ago, and I'm no longer really sure who I wrote it too anymore...but the laws weren't the covenant.

I agree 100% that a covenant is a sort of contract between two parties and I agree with your last line here that I've quoted, that one party can't just change a covenant. But the covenant wasn't the law given. Let me explain below what I mean.

----

First, again I agree with what you're referring to that Paul says here in Galatians 3:15

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Point by point to show you I agree:

- Once a covenant is confirmed it can't be nullified or changed. At all.

- The covenant with Abraham was the promised seed. Confirmed in Christ.

- The law (in context of JUSTIFICATION; cleansing of sins; galatians 2) was added because of transgression UNTIL the promised seed would come.

- This law that was added did not nullify or change Abraham's covenant (promised seed by faith)

----

We know that a covenant is confirmed with blood. Abraham's covenant was confirmed with the split animals. Locked in. Can't be changed.

Now if we go to Exodus we can read the details of the sinai covenant and read when it was confirmed/locked in.

Exodus 19:5-8
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

^ hopefully you agree that this is the "contract" per say: If the people obey His voice they will be a treasured kingdom of priests.

Notice they weren't told what to obey yet, because the agreement/covenant is specifically about obeying. But when was it confirmed/locked in?

Exodus 24:3-8
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Now if we scan the scriptures from Exodus 20 to 24 we can learn everything that was locked by blood within this sinai covenant:

- The Commandments
- Thanksgiving offerings
- Servitude rules
- Personal injury laws
- Payments & Restitutions
- Property Laws
- Social Laws
- judgments
- The Sabbath law
- Rules for listening to the Angel
- Restrictions on making covenants
- The Three Feasts (High Sabbath) law

Sealed by blood. Locked into the terms of the deal of obedience...but what's missing?

Again, we know that once a covenant is confirmed it can't be changed. The covenant was to obey, the people agreed, and then the above was locked into the agreement by blood.

...But notice there's no mention of the work of the levites or sacrifice laws yet. The covenant was locked in but these weren't stated.

Remember that Paul says "the law was added because of transgression", but the laws above given at mt. Sinai weren't added because of any transgressions. There was no transgression that prompted the giving those initial laws that are part of the sinai covenant.

...but there was a specific transgression that occurred after Moses was busy getting instructions for the tabernacle...

Exodus 32:1
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

After this event Israel was in violation of the covenant and because it was a blood covenant they deserved to die. This is why the first set of stone tablets were broken and another set had to be created.

The levites sided with Yah and Moses.

After this violation, we read the laws of sin offering and guilt offering being instructed to the people.

----

Do you now see how those laws of sacrifice (for justification) are separate from the sinai covenant? How they were added because of transgression? We don't read of blood cleansing rites until after the transgression of the golden calf...at least not as far as I've seen so far.

And until Christ came, no matter how many animals die or how much blood was shed, Israel remained in violation of the covenant deserving death.

That changed after Christ.

Israel was no longer in violation and deserved death. And the levitical priesthood was no longer needed, along with the rites. Those laws no longer needed to be performed.

And such change didn't affect the sinai covenant at all. With Christ, Israel - and anyone who willingly grafts in by faith in Him - can receive the promises of Abraham's covenant ("blessing to world"), of sinai's covenant ("royal nation of priests"), and of New Covenant ("laws written on heart by HS & sins forgiven").

 

[SimpleGardner]

I wrote this a few days ago, and I'm no longer really sure who I wrote it too anymore...but the laws weren't the covenant.

I agree 100% that a covenant is a sort of contract between two parties and I agree with your last line here that I've quoted, that one party can't just change a covenant. But the covenant wasn't the law given. Let me explain below what I mean.

----

First, again I agree with what you're referring to that Paul says here in Galatians 3:15

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Point by point to show you I agree:

- Once a covenant is confirmed it can't be nullified or changed. At all.

- The covenant with Abraham was the promised seed. Confirmed in Christ.

- The law (in context of JUSTIFICATION; cleansing of sins; galatians 2) was added because of transgression UNTIL the promised seed would come.

- This law that was added did not nullify or change Abraham's covenant (promised seed by faith)

----

We know that a covenant is confirmed with blood. Abraham's covenant was confirmed with the split animals. Locked in. Can't be changed.

Now if we go to Exodus we can read the details of the sinai covenant and read when it was confirmed/locked in.

Exodus 19:5-8
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

^ hopefully you agree that this is the "contract" per say: If the people obey His voice they will be a treasured kingdom of priests.

Notice they weren't told what to obey yet, because the agreement/covenant is specifically about obeying. But when was it confirmed/locked in?

Exodus 24:3-8
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Now if we scan the scriptures from Exodus 20 to 24 we can learn everything that was locked by blood within this sinai covenant:

- The Commandments
- Thanksgiving offerings
- Servitude rules
- Personal injury laws
- Payments & Restitutions
- Property Laws
- Social Laws
- judgments
- The Sabbath law
- Rules for listening to the Angel
- Restrictions on making covenants
- The Three Feasts (High Sabbath) law

Sealed by blood. Locked into the terms of the deal of obedience...but what's missing?

Again, we know that once a covenant is confirmed it can't be changed. The covenant was to obey, the people agreed, and then the above was locked into the agreement by blood.

...But notice there's no mention of the work of the levites or sacrifice laws yet. The covenant was locked in but these weren't stated.

Remember that Paul says "the law was added because of transgression", but the laws above given at mt. Sinai weren't added because of any transgressions. There was no transgression that prompted the giving those initial laws that are part of the sinai covenant.

...but there was a specific transgression that occurred after Moses was busy getting instructions for the tabernacle...

Exodus 32:1
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

After this event Israel was in violation of the covenant and because it was a blood covenant they deserved to die. This is why the first set of stone tablets were broken and another set had to be created.

The levites sided with Yah and Moses.

After this violation, we read the laws of sin offering and guilt offering being instructed to the people.

----

Do you now see how those laws of sacrifice (for justification) are separate from the sinai covenant? How they were added because of transgression? We don't read of blood cleansing rites until after the transgression of the golden calf...at least not as far as I've seen so far.

And until Christ came, no matter how many animals die or how much blood was shed, Israel remained in violation of the covenant deserving death.

That changed after Christ.

Israel was no longer in violation and deserved death. And the levitical priesthood was no longer needed, along with the rites. Those laws no longer needed to be performed.

And such change didn't affect the sinai covenant at all. With Christ, Israel - and anyone who willingly grafts in by faith in Him - can receive the promises of Abraham's covenant ("blessing to world"), of sinai's covenant ("royal nation of priests"), and of New Covenant ("laws written on heart by HS & sins forgiven").

Greetings Y,

Thanks for sharing this again!

I will read it every time!

You help me put that all together, which is a very important detail!

BIG Thank You!

Do you mind if I copy that into a study folder I have? If I ever cite it I will cite you.

SG

 

[SimpleGardner]

I wrote this a few days ago, and I'm no longer really sure who I wrote it too anymore...but the laws weren't the covenant.

I agree 100% that a covenant is a sort of contract between two parties and I agree with your last line here that I've quoted, that one party can't just change a covenant. But the covenant wasn't the law given. Let me explain below what I mean.

----

First, again I agree with what you're referring to that Paul says here in Galatians 3:15

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Point by point to show you I agree:

- Once a covenant is confirmed it can't be nullified or changed. At all.

- The covenant with Abraham was the promised seed. Confirmed in Christ.

- The law (in context of JUSTIFICATION; cleansing of sins; galatians 2) was added because of transgression UNTIL the promised seed would come.

- This law that was added did not nullify or change Abraham's covenant (promised seed by faith)

----

We know that a covenant is confirmed with blood. Abraham's covenant was confirmed with the split animals. Locked in. Can't be changed.

Now if we go to Exodus we can read the details of the sinai covenant and read when it was confirmed/locked in.

Exodus 19:5-8
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

^ hopefully you agree that this is the "contract" per say: If the people obey His voice they will be a treasured kingdom of priests.

Notice they weren't told what to obey yet, because the agreement/covenant is specifically about obeying. But when was it confirmed/locked in?

Exodus 24:3-8
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


Now if we scan the scriptures from Exodus 20 to 24 we can learn everything that was locked by blood within this sinai covenant:

- The Commandments
- Thanksgiving offerings
- Servitude rules
- Personal injury laws
- Payments & Restitutions
- Property Laws
- Social Laws
- judgments
- The Sabbath law
- Rules for listening to the Angel
- Restrictions on making covenants
- The Three Feasts (High Sabbath) law

Sealed by blood. Locked into the terms of the deal of obedience...but what's missing?

Again, we know that once a covenant is confirmed it can't be changed. The covenant was to obey, the people agreed, and then the above was locked into the agreement by blood.

...But notice there's no mention of the work of the levites or sacrifice laws yet. The covenant was locked in but these weren't stated.

Remember that Paul says "the law was added because of transgression", but the laws above given at mt. Sinai weren't added because of any transgressions. There was no transgression that prompted the giving those initial laws that are part of the sinai covenant.

...but there was a specific transgression that occurred after Moses was busy getting instructions for the tabernacle...

Exodus 32:1
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

After this event Israel was in violation of the covenant and because it was a blood covenant they deserved to die. This is why the first set of stone tablets were broken and another set had to be created.

The levites sided with Yah and Moses.

After this violation, we read the laws of sin offering and guilt offering being instructed to the people.

----

Do you now see how those laws of sacrifice (for justification) are separate from the sinai covenant? How they were added because of transgression? We don't read of blood cleansing rites until after the transgression of the golden calf...at least not as far as I've seen so far.

And until Christ came, no matter how many animals die or how much blood was shed, Israel remained in violation of the covenant deserving death.

That changed after Christ.

Israel was no longer in violation and deserved death. And the levitical priesthood was no longer needed, along with the rites. Those laws no longer needed to be performed.

And such change didn't affect the sinai covenant at all. With Christ, Israel - and anyone who willingly grafts in by faith in Him - can receive the promises of Abraham's covenant ("blessing to world"), of sinai's covenant ("royal nation of priests"), and of New Covenant ("laws written on heart by HS & sins forgiven").

You know that if people can get their head around this it could clear up MANY points of contention!

SG