Eternal torment VS Annihilation
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No, He isn't. God is either Just in executing the sentence of death (annihilation), or God is a cruel sadistic tyrant the likes of which none have ever known to prolong the sinner in agonies never letting them actually perish, but sustaining their life to unendingly torment the wicked.
Either God is long-suffering, or He is eternally-suffering the wicked to exist.
Either God's promises is true, in that those who repented inherit all things, and the wicked receive no place therein, or the wicked have a spot in the kingdom just outside of New Jerusalem on earth (in fact, would take up the face of the earth, with the saints locked in inside forever, see location of all the wicked, including satan in Rev. 20).
Either God is long-suffering, or He is eternally-suffering the wicked to exist.
Either God's promises is true, in that those who repented inherit all things, and the wicked receive no place therein, or the wicked have a spot in the kingdom just outside of New Jerusalem on earth (in fact, would take up the face of the earth, with the saints locked in inside forever, see location of all the wicked, including satan in Rev. 20).
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God is just no matter which view ends up being true. However God chooses to punish will always be just, no matter of our opinion.
Technically I haven't said which view I hold but I would like to examine your thoughts.
Why would God be sadistic tyrant if Hell was a eternal punishment where the nonbelievers are held for eternity?
Are you implying your opinion of morality as in you know what is just compared to God? Or could your understanding of Hell be incomplete or lacking understanding.
What agonies and torments are you referring to, can you be specific?
What is the eternal punishment scripture speaks of?
Technically I haven't said which view I hold but I would like to examine your thoughts.
Why would God be sadistic tyrant if Hell was a eternal punishment where the nonbelievers are held for eternity?
Are you implying your opinion of morality as in you know what is just compared to God? Or could your understanding of Hell be incomplete or lacking understanding.
What agonies and torments are you referring to, can you be specific?
What is the eternal punishment scripture speaks of?
Sure........keep dreaming.....My bible is clear, so is the inspired verbiage.....no matter how many people want to believe and peddle a temporary punishment for the lost it does not bear up under scrutiny and or a honest evaluation of the word of God....SO.....no sense to dance over this......you will not change my view!
Deade,
I've already addresses Rev.20:10. Satan is tormented "day and night forever and ever" because he's having all his sins exposed at the judgment seat of Christ. For "aion aion" (ages and ages) refers to the devils existence, not a life without end.
You skipped right over the scripture I cited where God himself is described as a consuming fire,
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. 2Thes.2:8
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. Psa.18:8
A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3
Jesus said the word he spoke would judge people. Not one person in this thread has acknowledged this.
I've already addresses Rev.20:10. Satan is tormented "day and night forever and ever" because he's having all his sins exposed at the judgment seat of Christ. For "aion aion" (ages and ages) refers to the devils existence, not a life without end.
You skipped right over the scripture I cited where God himself is described as a consuming fire,
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. 2Thes.2:8
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. Psa.18:8
A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3
Jesus said the word he spoke would judge people. Not one person in this thread has acknowledged this.
You are mistaken, read again, please:
Ok, the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". This does not deal with 'time', but 'distance' [height, ascending up to heaven]. The smoke goes "up" forever and ever. In other words, up and out of sight into the stratosphere.:
For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9
It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10
See:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
See also:
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23
And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3
We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:
And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:28
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9
As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. Jeremiah 49:18
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Jeremiah 50:40
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Luke 17:29
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.
We may also compare to the destruction of the city of Ai:
And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers. Joshua 8:20
And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai. Joshua 8:21
We may also compare in the book of Judges:
Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:38
But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. Judges 20:40
Elsewhere:
For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18
We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18
Ok, the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". This does not deal with 'time', but 'distance' [height, ascending up to heaven]. The smoke goes "up" forever and ever. In other words, up and out of sight into the stratosphere.:
For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9
It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10
See:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11
See also:
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23
And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3
We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:
And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:28
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9
As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. Jeremiah 49:18
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Jeremiah 50:40
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Luke 17:29
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.
We may also compare to the destruction of the city of Ai:
And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers. Joshua 8:20
And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai. Joshua 8:21
We may also compare in the book of Judges:
Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:38
But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. Judges 20:40
Elsewhere:
For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18
We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18
I never said that "eternal" was "temporary". In fact I stated that the wages of sin is eternal death, which is the punishment (wages) for sin.
Punishment, not punishing. The wages of sin is death (2nd). It will indeed be "everlasting" as there is no resurrection from it.
Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
How did you miss the words now in red? It can only be by the following:
Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act_28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Brother, "dcontroversial", please open your eyes. There is no one holding them closed except you. If you open them, you will see.
Punishment, not punishing. The wages of sin is death (2nd). It will indeed be "everlasting" as there is no resurrection from it.
Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
How did you miss the words now in red? It can only be by the following:
Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act_28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Brother, "dcontroversial", please open your eyes. There is no one holding them closed except you. If you open them, you will see.
The "punishment" isn't temporary. You keep setting up a straw-man theology which I have never advocated and attack it. The "punishment" is "eternal", "everlasting", "for ever and ever", unending, without parole, etc. It is everlasting death, oblivion, annihilation:
Do the scriptures teach the Annihilation of the Wicked in the 2nd Death?
Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10,20, 37:28,38, 68:2,28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; James 1:15; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9
The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked in those verses are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:
[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]
[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]
Other passages can also be looked at individually, and such terms like "unquenchable", "eternal", "for ever and ever", "everlasting", etc and their Biblical use in terms of the righteous and the wicked in context.
Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?
"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11; see also Daniel 2:35
Do the scriptures teach the Annihilation of the Wicked in the 2nd Death?
Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10,20, 37:28,38, 68:2,28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; James 1:15; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9
The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked in those verses are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:
[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]
[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]
Other passages can also be looked at individually, and such terms like "unquenchable", "eternal", "for ever and ever", "everlasting", etc and their Biblical use in terms of the righteous and the wicked in context.
Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?
"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11; see also Daniel 2:35
I agree, and scripture is given "line upon line" (Isaiah 28:10,13):
Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.
How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?
As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture, do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].
Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:
Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:
Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.
Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":
In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:
Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.
The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:
Psalms 21:4 - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
Ecclesiastes 8:13 - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:
When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:
The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:
Penitently redeemed:
John 14:20 - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Exodus 3:2 - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Stubbornly wicked:
John 5:38 - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 8:37 - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 5:42 - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Exodus 33:5 - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.
Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".
Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to escape their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...
In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6], Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; Jude 1:15], as it is written.
So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.
Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.
How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?
As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture, do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].
Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:
Hebrew 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrew 9:26 - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται
Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:
Titus 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:12 - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι
Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.
Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":
Jonah 2:6 - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.
In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:
Jonah 1:17 - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.
The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:
Psalms 21:4 - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
Ecclesiastes 8:13 - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:
Isaiah 22:14 - And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Psalms 37:10 - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:
Malachi 4:1 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:3 - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:
Penitently redeemed:
John 14:20 - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Exodus 3:2 - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Stubbornly wicked:
John 5:38 - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 8:37 - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 5:42 - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Exodus 33:5 - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.
Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".
Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to escape their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...
In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6], Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; Jude 1:15], as it is written.
So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.
Let me ask you then, following the same pattern:
Which is not misquoted, and which is simply a condensation after the same manner of not including all of the words of the original?:
Mat_4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk_4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Did you or did you not say:
Then I said:
Misquoted, it actually states:
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev_19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Distance, not time.
Now. How is the pattern I gave above different than the example of what just took place between us in regards my statement of misquotation?
Which is not misquoted, and which is simply a condensation after the same manner of not including all of the words of the original?:
Mat_4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk_4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Did you or did you not say:
Then I said:
Misquoted, it actually states:
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev_19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Distance, not time.
Now. How is the pattern I gave above different than the example of what just took place between us in regards my statement of misquotation?
It is simple, when prayerfully considered, rather than seminarily considered:
The "punishment" is indeed "eternal". For the "wages of sin is death", that being the "second death".
The "torment", or the "suffering" unto that death, is limited. The suffering or torment is not eternal, as I have shown in the case of Jesus Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. His suffering though tremendous, more than any other could endure [for just our own sins would crush us], and yet, it was limited. Hence the phrase, "once suffered", meaning it is in the past, and is over and done with, thus it was limited in time.
The "tolerable" portion deals with the "torment" and knowledge, and the length/duration and severity unto the death, because of the light they [Chorazin, Bethsaida, etc] had received and rejected. John 1:1-11, reveals Jesus Christ coming unto His own in person, in the fallen sinful flesh of mankind, remained sinless, and yet they rejected Jesus to His face. Sodom and Gomorah had not face to face rejected Jesus Christ, nor been directly witness to the miracles which He did by the Father, through the Holy Spirit, though they had some evidence through Abraham, and even Lot. Thus Sodom and Gomorrah had less light, than did they in the days of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
The greater the light sent, and rejected, the greater the torment and anguish for having rejected it:
Luke 12:47 - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The "punishment" is indeed "eternal". For the "wages of sin is death", that being the "second death".
The "torment", or the "suffering" unto that death, is limited. The suffering or torment is not eternal, as I have shown in the case of Jesus Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. His suffering though tremendous, more than any other could endure [for just our own sins would crush us], and yet, it was limited. Hence the phrase, "once suffered", meaning it is in the past, and is over and done with, thus it was limited in time.
The "tolerable" portion deals with the "torment" and knowledge, and the length/duration and severity unto the death, because of the light they [Chorazin, Bethsaida, etc] had received and rejected. John 1:1-11, reveals Jesus Christ coming unto His own in person, in the fallen sinful flesh of mankind, remained sinless, and yet they rejected Jesus to His face. Sodom and Gomorah had not face to face rejected Jesus Christ, nor been directly witness to the miracles which He did by the Father, through the Holy Spirit, though they had some evidence through Abraham, and even Lot. Thus Sodom and Gomorrah had less light, than did they in the days of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
The greater the light sent, and rejected, the greater the torment and anguish for having rejected it:
Luke 12:47 - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Even Baptists understand this:
Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)
Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :
"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography
Modern era:
"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...
... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way
"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?
E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell
General Baptists In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held:
"that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern
and not only they, but a great portion of the Reformation.
You have confused "eternal death" with "torment". The two are not synonymous. The torment [limited] happens before the [eternal] death takes place, while they yet live to suffer every man according as his works shall be. The death [2nd] is the ultimate end, from which there is no resurrection, nor return.
Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)
Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :
"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography
Modern era:
"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...
... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way
"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?
E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell
General Baptists In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held:
"that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern
and not only they, but a great portion of the Reformation.
You have confused "eternal death" with "torment". The two are not synonymous. The torment [limited] happens before the [eternal] death takes place, while they yet live to suffer every man according as his works shall be. The death [2nd] is the ultimate end, from which there is no resurrection, nor return.
One suffers longer according as their works [which is Justice]. Hence the difference between torment [limited] and final end, 2nd death [permanent, eternal].
Matthew 8:29 - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Are wicked angels suffering now in fire, or later, if now, how do you explain this verse, and if later when according to your belief and for how long?
I read, in scripture, that "suffering"/torment has a limit, even for such wickedness that reached unto Heaven:
Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The "vengeance of eternal fire" , is the same as saying the "vengeance of God [who is the eternal fire]".
Christ Jesus also "suffered" for sin, having took our sins [all sin of man-kind] upon himself, and was it forever, no, but "once" [having a limited time]?
1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Hebrews 13:12 - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hebrews 9:25 - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Acts 17:3 - Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Luke 24:26 - Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Acts 17:3, teaches that suffering [for sin] exists only while alive, and the suffering was to continue unto the death, but once truly dead, there is no more suffering, and thus suffering has a limit, has an end, and thus the former things are passed away [gone, no more, not ever again, etc].
Matthew 8:29 - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Are wicked angels suffering now in fire, or later, if now, how do you explain this verse, and if later when according to your belief and for how long?
I read, in scripture, that "suffering"/torment has a limit, even for such wickedness that reached unto Heaven:
Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The "vengeance of eternal fire" , is the same as saying the "vengeance of God [who is the eternal fire]".
Christ Jesus also "suffered" for sin, having took our sins [all sin of man-kind] upon himself, and was it forever, no, but "once" [having a limited time]?
1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Hebrews 13:12 - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hebrews 9:25 - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26 - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Acts 17:3 - Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Luke 24:26 - Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Acts 17:3, teaches that suffering [for sin] exists only while alive, and the suffering was to continue unto the death, but once truly dead, there is no more suffering, and thus suffering has a limit, has an end, and thus the former things are passed away [gone, no more, not ever again, etc].
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