Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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because this whole thread is about Moses law, and for about 75 pages i've been saying Moses law isn't the only law, because the ubiquitous accusation toward any Christian who maintains they are not under Moses law i.e. 'the law' is that they are lawless and love to sin and trying to make excuses to be wicked.
you and i are in exactly that same boat, DeighAnn. unified. and yet we love scripture, in particular we love the old testament including all that law that we're not under.
so what do we see in it?
Jesus, i hope. and He is the only thing i really want to talk about.
not everything in my replies is all for you. some of it is for the people reading who still don't see the freedom that there is in Christ. like the 'there's more here than just trying to put people under Moses law' thing -- i believe you when you say you know you aren't. that's for people who don't see it.
you and i are in exactly that same boat, DeighAnn. unified. and yet we love scripture, in particular we love the old testament including all that law that we're not under.
so what do we see in it?
Jesus, i hope. and He is the only thing i really want to talk about.
not everything in my replies is all for you. some of it is for the people reading who still don't see the freedom that there is in Christ. like the 'there's more here than just trying to put people under Moses law' thing -- i believe you when you say you know you aren't. that's for people who don't see it.
i don't know why you are being so defensive or why you're accusing me.
i haven't even said a single word about your salvation or your faith. i trust those things to the Almighty. the only thing i have disagreed with you about is whether the mere fact of sin implies the law.
and that is turning out to maybe not even be a disagreement but a misunderstood vocabulary. i am assuming throughout here that when someone says 'the law' that equals Moses' Law / Torah / Genesis-through-Deuteronomy / Sinai covenant law.
i don't think that's the law God speaks about in Jeremiah 31. i don't think that's what's written on our hearts. i think it can't be because of the example of physical circumcision, because of blood sacrifices not only for sin or guilt but also for thanksgiving and vows, because of the priesthood of Levi, because of stoning to death offenders by the hands of the whole congregation, and ultimately, because Jesus said "a new commandment" -- and by saying "new" He sets aside the old.
the law - the law of Moses / Torah / covenant of Sinai law etc - is not broken into pieces. i believe that is a very wrong idea many people ((not accusing you! just stating something!)) use as an excuse to put themselves and others under it while ignoring more than half of the rest of it.
i think you agree. with all that.
i think you are edgy, and have been wrongfully accused, misunderstood and mistreated, and are defensive because of it.
we're brother and sister. i'm not attacking you. i'm just trying to reach out and try to get past all this bitter 'us v. them' war and establish fellowship. for some reason i have the idea it may actually work with you, where with others it has failed. i think some people just want antagonism, in the end. i don't think that about you.
((i ain't read most of this thread tho, lol))
the Torah is scripture. if it's not there because we are under it having become believers, and if it's not there because it's the only way we can be righteous or understand what good behaviour looks like ((i'm not saying you say these things! i'm just taking a series of logical steps! relevant to what's been said in this thread by others, who also read!)), if the law is not scripture in order for us to be slaves to it, then it is there for another reason. scripture calls it a shadow ((Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 10:1)), and we know what the substance is. we know Who the Substance is. it's Jesus Christ, God the Son.
that's why i want to talk about all the deeper things going on in Matthew 4, because that conversation is soaked in OT references, a conversation taking place not just on the surface level but with complex subtext that, following it, will take us all over the law, through the prophets, and back to Genesis 3, and ultimately to the reality of who Jesus is, and the ultimate reality of what He does by being found in the appearance of a man, and what salvation is -- which is freedom, a perfect freedom and a perfect righteousness - which is wholly relevant to the whole theme of this thread, being not under the Sinai covenant law, yet not being lawless, having a righteousness of faith, not of works, a life not inherited by keeping commandments but by belief, and working through love.
there are far, far more wonderful things to be found if we'd all take our minds off ourselves and each other and just turn our eyes towards Him. to see Him in Leviticus. a perfect love that drives out all fear, words of spirit, of truth.
i'm not saying ignore 'the law' -- i never have said that. i'm trying to talk about seeing it for what it really is. no veil.
((not accusing you of any of those things at all DeighAnn!))
i haven't even said a single word about your salvation or your faith. i trust those things to the Almighty. the only thing i have disagreed with you about is whether the mere fact of sin implies the law.
and that is turning out to maybe not even be a disagreement but a misunderstood vocabulary. i am assuming throughout here that when someone says 'the law' that equals Moses' Law / Torah / Genesis-through-Deuteronomy / Sinai covenant law.
i don't think that's the law God speaks about in Jeremiah 31. i don't think that's what's written on our hearts. i think it can't be because of the example of physical circumcision, because of blood sacrifices not only for sin or guilt but also for thanksgiving and vows, because of the priesthood of Levi, because of stoning to death offenders by the hands of the whole congregation, and ultimately, because Jesus said "a new commandment" -- and by saying "new" He sets aside the old.
the law - the law of Moses / Torah / covenant of Sinai law etc - is not broken into pieces. i believe that is a very wrong idea many people ((not accusing you! just stating something!)) use as an excuse to put themselves and others under it while ignoring more than half of the rest of it.
i think you agree. with all that.
i think you are edgy, and have been wrongfully accused, misunderstood and mistreated, and are defensive because of it.
we're brother and sister. i'm not attacking you. i'm just trying to reach out and try to get past all this bitter 'us v. them' war and establish fellowship. for some reason i have the idea it may actually work with you, where with others it has failed. i think some people just want antagonism, in the end. i don't think that about you.
((i ain't read most of this thread tho, lol))
the Torah is scripture. if it's not there because we are under it having become believers, and if it's not there because it's the only way we can be righteous or understand what good behaviour looks like ((i'm not saying you say these things! i'm just taking a series of logical steps! relevant to what's been said in this thread by others, who also read!)), if the law is not scripture in order for us to be slaves to it, then it is there for another reason. scripture calls it a shadow ((Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 10:1)), and we know what the substance is. we know Who the Substance is. it's Jesus Christ, God the Son.
that's why i want to talk about all the deeper things going on in Matthew 4, because that conversation is soaked in OT references, a conversation taking place not just on the surface level but with complex subtext that, following it, will take us all over the law, through the prophets, and back to Genesis 3, and ultimately to the reality of who Jesus is, and the ultimate reality of what He does by being found in the appearance of a man, and what salvation is -- which is freedom, a perfect freedom and a perfect righteousness - which is wholly relevant to the whole theme of this thread, being not under the Sinai covenant law, yet not being lawless, having a righteousness of faith, not of works, a life not inherited by keeping commandments but by belief, and working through love.
there are far, far more wonderful things to be found if we'd all take our minds off ourselves and each other and just turn our eyes towards Him. to see Him in Leviticus. a perfect love that drives out all fear, words of spirit, of truth.
i'm not saying ignore 'the law' -- i never have said that. i'm trying to talk about seeing it for what it really is. no veil.
((not accusing you of any of those things at all DeighAnn!))
what does everyone think about this statement?
now, that man was a bit of an anarchist when he wrote that. but the idea behind it is interesting - that what is "real" law is that which cannot be broken, like, it's not even possible, barring miracles. such as the law of conservation of momentum, for example, or the law of cosines.
relevant?
the law is the law,
and everybody on earth obeys it
and everybody on earth obeys it
- Perry Ferrel
now, that man was a bit of an anarchist when he wrote that. but the idea behind it is interesting - that what is "real" law is that which cannot be broken, like, it's not even possible, barring miracles. such as the law of conservation of momentum, for example, or the law of cosines.
relevant?
you've misunderstood quite a lot of my conversation.
i didn't say there was 'no law' i said it could not possibly be Moses' law:
as do i.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 → "the law" ((meaning Moses' law)) is not the same thing as "the law of Christ"
there is a law written on the hearts of those brought into the new covenant. it is not 'physical circumcision' or else, Galatians would be a big pack of lies.
don't you agree?
i know you do. so why are you acting like we're enemies?
don't take what K. or SG or Josh say about me to be the actual meaning of what i have said. they don't accept it, so they misrepresent it.
i didn't say there was 'no law' i said it could not possibly be Moses' law:
as do i.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 → "the law" ((meaning Moses' law)) is not the same thing as "the law of Christ"
there is a law written on the hearts of those brought into the new covenant. it is not 'physical circumcision' or else, Galatians would be a big pack of lies.
don't you agree?
i know you do. so why are you acting like we're enemies?
don't take what K. or SG or Josh say about me to be the actual meaning of what i have said. they don't accept it, so they misrepresent it.
This just came to me when I was considering the arguments that are sometimes put forth that claim the laws of God, even the 10 commands, no longer apply.
Romans 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Perhaps that is what compels that argument? Without the law there is no sin, therefore anything goes because no thing can be considered as sin when the law, as some argue, no longer applies?
Romans 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Perhaps that is what compels that argument? Without the law there is no sin, therefore anything goes because no thing can be considered as sin when the law, as some argue, no longer applies?
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I think you are correct and I owe you a big apology. I am very sorry. I posted to you what I meant for someone else. I should probably stick with one topic at a time. Lesson learned. I would love to speak of the Spiritual side of the law, though that would be impossible in this thread as any mention of the law of moses just sends us all back to square one where...well you got a taste of the problem. If the Word hadn't of warned me this is what would happen I would think I was in La La land. So yes I am sorry for addressing you incorrectly. Yes you are correct the law of Moses didn't come in until after Egypt and left with John the Baptist. Please don't let it effect the rest of your day. Thank you for being gentle in your correction. I appreciate it more than you know.
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Hey Deigh
Greetings,
Here are few verses that seem to indicate the existence of the 10 commandments prior to Sinai;
Gen 13:13 KJV But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Before Sinai Broke 7th
Gen 20:3-9 KJV But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. (4) But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? (5) Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. (6) And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. (7) Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. (8) Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. (9) Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 39:7-9 KJV And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. (8) But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; (9) There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
Before Sinai Broke 6 & 9
Gen 4:9-12 KJV And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? (10) And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (11) And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; (12) When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Before Sinai, Broke 8 & 10
Gen 3:6-17 KJV And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (7) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (8) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. (9) And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (10) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (11) And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (12) And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (13) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (14) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Before the Sinai Covenant: Checking 4th Commandment. In place before Adam and Eve; Gen 2:1-3
Exo 16:4 KJV Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Greetings,
Here are few verses that seem to indicate the existence of the 10 commandments prior to Sinai;
Gen 13:13 KJV But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Before Sinai Broke 7th
Gen 20:3-9 KJV But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. (4) But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? (5) Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. (6) And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. (7) Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. (8) Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. (9) Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 39:7-9 KJV And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. (8) But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; (9) There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
Before Sinai Broke 6 & 9
Gen 4:9-12 KJV And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? (10) And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (11) And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; (12) When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Before Sinai, Broke 8 & 10
Gen 3:6-17 KJV And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (7) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (8) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. (9) And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (10) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (11) And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (12) And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (13) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (14) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Before the Sinai Covenant: Checking 4th Commandment. In place before Adam and Eve; Gen 2:1-3
Exo 16:4 KJV Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
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Is it the Talmud you abhor?
The Torah?
I am interested in what you mean by that. I do not identify with Judiasm, but that said not every aspect of Judiasm was counter to the will of God.
I think I understand your argument about the Law being displaced by Grace for Justification, I agree with that, I just disagree with saying the Holy Spirit not writing the desire and love for Gods Laws on our hearts.
SG
The Torah?
I am interested in what you mean by that. I do not identify with Judiasm, but that said not every aspect of Judiasm was counter to the will of God.
I think I understand your argument about the Law being displaced by Grace for Justification, I agree with that, I just disagree with saying the Holy Spirit not writing the desire and love for Gods Laws on our hearts.
SG
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Here's what I'm getting from this post, and (hopefully) help somewhat explain the "overplaying" of the right teacher, to the point of detriment of the (rest of) the fruit of the Spirit.
Y'all, well, a great many, take "a" right teacher, in this case, Paul's "Love is the GREATEST!" "LOVE is the GREATEST!" Teaching, as the ONLY "fruit of the Spirit!"
NEVER! Coming to terms, in trying to understand ANY of Christ's parables, concerning "The Kingdom." Nor, "the mysteries" Paul was trying teach about "the Kingdom."
Nor, willing in the taking of the "Spiritual implications", written in the O.T.
NEVER willing to admit, y'all have disregarded Paul's warning TO "the wild olive trees."
Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and SEVERITY of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: OTHERWISE THY SHALT ALSO BE CUT OFF!
But? Oh SO WILLING in "boasting against the branches!"
Rather willing to WAIT, until you're "pushing daisies!"
When "the law of love" is pushed as hard, and as far as it has been? "The Love boat", runs aground. The "Word of God" is made void, concerning "the Kingdom."
The "spirit of adoption" cannot DO that, for which it has been CREATED to do.
One is born (again) in "Eyes of FLESH Love", yet, not "born again of the Spirit!
Y'all think God is love! And? He is! And is Totally INCAPABLE in regards to ANY other emotion!
ESPECIALLY, when it comes to those practicing and perpetuating "the Law of Love!"
Y'all, well, a great many, take "a" right teacher, in this case, Paul's "Love is the GREATEST!" "LOVE is the GREATEST!" Teaching, as the ONLY "fruit of the Spirit!"
NEVER! Coming to terms, in trying to understand ANY of Christ's parables, concerning "The Kingdom." Nor, "the mysteries" Paul was trying teach about "the Kingdom."
Nor, willing in the taking of the "Spiritual implications", written in the O.T.
NEVER willing to admit, y'all have disregarded Paul's warning TO "the wild olive trees."
Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and SEVERITY of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: OTHERWISE THY SHALT ALSO BE CUT OFF!
But? Oh SO WILLING in "boasting against the branches!"
Rather willing to WAIT, until you're "pushing daisies!"
When "the law of love" is pushed as hard, and as far as it has been? "The Love boat", runs aground. The "Word of God" is made void, concerning "the Kingdom."
The "spirit of adoption" cannot DO that, for which it has been CREATED to do.
One is born (again) in "Eyes of FLESH Love", yet, not "born again of the Spirit!
Y'all think God is love! And? He is! And is Totally INCAPABLE in regards to ANY other emotion!
ESPECIALLY, when it comes to those practicing and perpetuating "the Law of Love!"
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Didn't you say if I gave a red x you would put me on ignore again? Shoot, I gave you 2 so you would be solid in your decision, one I whole heartedly agreed with, yet here we are, contention and strife, I can't do this. I don't want to say" You win", you would think I was being sarcastic. I would gladly undo the red xs if you would put me on ignore. I just am not allowed to continue with you. I don't believe it is Gods Will or else there would be some thing positive. But you and I both know there has not been anything but misunderstanding and disagreements. God says DON'T. HOW about we just follow that "advice"? would that word work for this situation here? And leave the red xs on mine. Does this work for you? Short of changing my beliefs what would make this stop?
