If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Jackson123]

The Quran confuses Mary, the mother of the Lord Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses. The Quran identifies Mary as the sister of Aaron, the daughter of Imran, whose mother was the wife of Imran:

When the wife of Imran said, 'Lord, I have vowed to Thee, in dedication, what is within my womb. Receive Thou this from me; Thou hearest, and knowest.' And when she gave birth to her she said, 'Lord, I have given birth to her, a female.' (And God knew very well what she had given birth to; the male is not as the female.) 'And I have named her Mary, and commend her to Thee with her seed, to protect them from the accursed Satan.' S. 3:35-36 Arberry

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing! Sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a woman unchaste.' S. 19:27-28

And Mary, Imran's daughter, who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Books, and became one of the obedient. S. 66:12

 

[Hazelelponi]

If you follow my conversation with Jackson backwards, I think it relates to a Catholic document called lumen gentium, or something like that.

So what would be your opinion of this
Jews and Christians worship the same God.
When Jews say that Jesus of Nazareth is not God's son, that does not mean that they are then worshipping a different God.

No. While Jews won't make it to heaven without Christ, they are still worshipping/praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

They recognize the same God as being God that Christians do.

Islam doesn't. They are worshipping/praying to a "god" that doesn't recognize the covenant promises with the Jewish people.

It's a god of a different nature, not the same one.

Both groups need to come to a saving faith in Messiah, but one group isn't worshipping the same God.

 

[Dan_473]

Jews that is not interprate old testament correctly to the point do not believe Jesus as God not whorship Abraham god.

Jews that are atheis not whorship Christian God.

Catholic is not whorship Christian God because Christian God never teach to pray to Mary.

Muslim is not worship Christian God because between muslim and Christian God have different specification

Quran say Jesus son of Mary, Moses sister

So in moslim Jesus eartly mother is Moses sister.

Yes, following that line of reasoning we can say that the Jews who say that Jesus is not God are not truly worshipping the God of Abraham.

Now, God says through Paul
Romans 10: 2. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

So the Jews have a zeal for God, but they lack knowledge.

What about the Muslims? Do they have a zeal for God? Well, some of them probably do. But they have even less knowledge than the Jews.

And then there's people at different times and places who have sought the unknown God. But they have never heard of Abraham or Jesus.. it's like they are groping for God in the dark.

And that's the three groups that they are talking about in that section of Lumen gentium that you were talking about, I think.


I think it's similar to the question that people sometimes talk about, what happens to people who have never heard the gospel? If they never heard the name of Jesus in their lifetime here on Earth, is there any way they can go to heaven or are they automatically condemned to eternity without God?

Acts 17: 27. So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:

 

[Dan_473]

The Quran confuses Mary, the mother of the Lord Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses. The Quran identifies Mary as the sister of Aaron, the daughter of Imran, whose mother was the wife of Imran:

When the wife of Imran said, 'Lord, I have vowed to Thee, in dedication, what is within my womb. Receive Thou this from me; Thou hearest, and knowest.' And when she gave birth to her she said, 'Lord, I have given birth to her, a female.' (And God knew very well what she had given birth to; the male is not as the female.) 'And I have named her Mary, and commend her to Thee with her seed, to protect them from the accursed Satan.' S. 3:35-36 Arberry

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing! Sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a woman unchaste.' S. 19:27-28

And Mary, Imran's daughter, who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Books, and became one of the obedient. S. 66:12

Yes, the Quran has all kinds of strange ideas doesn't it? The Muslims definitely lack knowledge.

A lot of people see a similarity between Muhammad and Joseph Smith, the guy who started Mormonism.

Both men claimed to have received a special book from God which contains very weird things, to say the least!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. While Jews won't make it to heaven without Christ, they are still worshipping/praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

They recognize the same God as being God that Christians do.

Islam doesn't. They are worshipping/praying to a "god" that doesn't recognize the covenant promises with the Jewish people.

It's a god of a different nature, not the same one.

Both groups need to come to a saving faith in Messiah, but one group isn't worshipping the same God.

The jews rejected the God of Israel. They hung him on the cross.. so no. They do not worship the same god. They worship the God that have made up in their minds.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Jewish God says HE is the I Am, this means, His acknowledgement of Himself, His description of Himself is that He exists.

The God of Islam says (la ilhaha ilallah - There is no God but Allah)

So in order to acknowledge it's existence as a god, it must first negate all else.

The issue with negating all else being necessary before you can affirm, is that you can't negate what doesn't exist to be negated.

So in spite of the plethora of various "gods" that the pagans worshipped in early history (Ancient Sumer, the Mesopotamian cultures that lived around the early Jews etc) all the God of Abraham needed to say was I AM.

Why? Because other gods either didn't exist except in the minds of people or simply weren't Gods in the same manner as the I AM was God.

This is actually quite a contrast to the Islamic God who must negate what exists before the affirmation of its existence, specifically, its saying its not God so long as anything else exists (whose existence we must negate)

Noting they are both Semitic languages so there is more similarity than difference in styles of the two languages.

Secondly, the Name of God was given to Moses as the name of God who said, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

First, God repeated the Abrahamic covenant with three generations, first with Abraham, then with Isaac, and lastly with Jacob.

This descriptor then, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is specific to one God, the I AM. The God who exists. the God over the Jews - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

This full name which is a description is never once found in the Qur'an, or ahadith.. not even one time.

I could go on for days, but in the two texts - the Bible and the Qur'an it is clearly two separate entities, and the later is simply trying to convince you he's the first, and doing a very poor job of it.

So if the Catholics think Muslims will be in their heaven, well, I don't find it likely I'll be there, as I left Islam to follow a different God.

All that said, isn't this off topic?

The words God used to moses literally are translated as two words, Ego (I) Eime ( I Am)

It can be translated the eternal one, or the one who has always existed.

Notice, when jesus was contronted by the pharisees, and they mentioned Abraham, jesus used those same words, When he said before abraham was, I I Am (I have always existed)

Many people believe, as I do. Pre-incarnate jesus was the God of Israel who spoke those words to moses

 

[Hazelelponi]

The jews rejected the God of Israel. They hung him on the cross.. so no. They do not worship the same god. They worship the God that have made up in their minds.

So did the Romans kill Jesus.

Christ died for you. For me. For all who became sons and daughters - whether natural or of the adoption and so we are all guilty of His Blood.

"But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching." Matthew 22:31-33

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, He taught the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If you do not believe in the God Jesus taught as "Our Father" Then you aren't even in a similar faith..

However, you can be outside the covenant promises and still believe in the same God. Jews today are outside the covenant promises, but they believe in the same God we do.

We didn't suddenly get a new God, it's the same God as before.

You might like to read the book "Jesus & Israel One Covenant or Two?" by David E. Holwerda.

 

[notuptome]

I don't understand why you were talking about alleged commonality between Roman Catholics and Muslims, they look very different to me.

I can agree that correct knowledge of Christ is required for salvation. Again, is that correct knowledge arrived at by each individual reading the Bible for themselves? Or is the correct knowledge found in and by the body of Christ operating as a whole?

Christianity is totally unique.

The correct knowledge is arrived at by the leading of the Holy Spirit through the word of God. Spoken or written the Holy Spirit uses the word of God to effect the results taught in John 16:8-11

Catholics and Islam are in that they change the God who is God into a god their own imagination. Their minds have been darkened and they no longer receive the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So did the Romans kill Jesus.

Christ died for you. For me. For all who became sons and daughters - whether natural or of the adoption and so we are all guilty of His Blood.

"But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching." Matthew 22:31-33

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, He taught the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If you do not believe in the God Jesus taught as "Our Father" Then you aren't even in a similar faith..

However, you can be outside the covenant promises and still believe in the same God. Jews today are outside the covenant promises, but they believe in the same God we do.

We didn't suddenly get a new God, it's the same God as before.

You might like to read the book "Jesus & Israel One Covenant or Two?" by David E. Holwerda.

Not sure how you can kill your gd and yet still believe in him. Just saying

 

[Dan_473]

No. While Jews won't make it to heaven without Christ, they are still worshipping/praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

They recognize the same God as being God that Christians do.

Islam doesn't. They are worshipping/praying to a "god" that doesn't recognize the covenant promises with the Jewish people.

It's a god of a different nature, not the same one.

Both groups need to come to a saving faith in Messiah, but one group isn't worshipping the same God.

Good points!

So here's two questions

If both a Jew and a Muslim say that there is only one God, are they both telling the truth?

If a Jew believes in a God who is Unitarian, and a Christian believes in a God who is trinitarian, are they both believing in the same God, a God with the same nature?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does anyone remember who the God was abraham and his family worshiped in the UR of the chaldians, and also in its sister city of Haran?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, following that line of reasoning we can say that the Jews who say that Jesus is not God are not truly worshipping the God of Abraham.

Now, God says through Paul
Romans 10: 2. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

So the Jews have a zeal for God, but they lack knowledge.

What about the Muslims? Do they have a zeal for God? Well, some of them probably do. But they have even less knowledge than the Jews.

And then there's people at different times and places who have sought the unknown God. But they have never heard of Abraham or Jesus.. it's like they are groping for God in the dark.

And that's the three groups that they are talking about in that section of Lumen gentium that you were talking about, I think.


I think it's similar to the question that people sometimes talk about, what happens to people who have never heard the gospel? If they never heard the name of Jesus in their lifetime here on Earth, is there any way they can go to heaven or are they automatically condemned to eternity without God?

Acts 17: 27. So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:

Let focus oN : is catholic Lie when she say islam worship Abraham God?

Yes, catholic Lie. Islam God is not Abraham God.

Hindu worship God, but not Abraham god

Catholic worship God but not Abraham God

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, the Quran has all kinds of strange ideas doesn't it? The Muslims definitely lack knowledge.

A lot of people see a similarity between Muhammad and Joseph Smith, the guy who started Mormonism.

Both men claimed to have received a special book from God which contains very weird things, to say the least!

Islam say God send Gabriel to tell all kind of story to mohammad and mohammad memirized It than tell to his friend to wrote It.

One of the story from God is, Mary Jesus mother is Moses sister.

Bible say Mary mother of Jesus born about 2000 year after Moses.

Prove 2 different God here, or same God but liar.

I chose 2 different God.

So catholic is liar

 

[Deuteronomy]

Not sure how you can kill your gd and yet still believe in him. Just saying

Hi Eternally-Gratefull, some of the Romans who put the Lord to death ended up believing after doing so, yes?

Matthew 27​

50 Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. ​

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split, ​

52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; ​

53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. ​

54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”​

~Deut
p.s. - if we (who are saved from our sins and from the wrath of God by Jesus' death on the Cross) are not the cause of/reason for His death, what/who is

.​

 

[Jackson123]

I am going to remind people what is love.

Love mean tell other how to save and how to not save, so other know to chose how to save.

Catholic or muslim teach you how to not save. And If we love them we have to tell them.

Let me repeat my analogy

If you know your blind love one walk to the cliff, you have to stop him. Tell him If you keep walk that direction It Will kill you.

Please love your catholic brother tell them, If you consolt to Mary, you Will die.

My catholic friend consult to the statue If Mary every time he have a problem, and he say Mary always give solution.

I tell him, that is not Mary spirit

The spirit that talk to you is devil

 

[TheLearner]

The Quran confuses Mary, the mother of the Lord Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses. The Quran identifies Mary as the sister of Aaron, the daughter of Imran, whose mother was the wife of Imran:

When the wife of Imran said, 'Lord, I have vowed to Thee, in dedication, what is within my womb. Receive Thou this from me; Thou hearest, and knowest.' And when she gave birth to her she said, 'Lord, I have given birth to her, a female.' (And God knew very well what she had given birth to; the male is not as the female.) 'And I have named her Mary, and commend her to Thee with her seed, to protect them from the accursed Satan.' S. 3:35-36 Arberry

Then she brought the child to her folk carrying him; and they said, 'Mary, thou hast surely committed a monstrous thing! Sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a woman unchaste.' S. 19:27-28

And Mary, Imran's daughter, who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Books, and became one of the obedient. S. 66:12

It also has Mary as part of the Trinity.

 

[TheLearner]

Yes, following that line of reasoning we can say that the Jews who say that Jesus is not God are not truly worshipping the God of Abraham.

Now, God says through Paul
Romans 10: 2. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

So the Jews have a zeal for God, but they lack knowledge.

What about the Muslims? Do they have a zeal for God? Well, some of them probably do. But they have even less knowledge than the Jews.

And then there's people at different times and places who have sought the unknown God. But they have never heard of Abraham or Jesus.. it's like they are groping for God in the dark.

And that's the three groups that they are talking about in that section of Lumen gentium that you were talking about, I think.


I think it's similar to the question that people sometimes talk about, what happens to people who have never heard the gospel? If they never heard the name of Jesus in their lifetime here on Earth, is there any way they can go to heaven or are they automatically condemned to eternity without God?

Acts 17: 27. So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[TheLearner]

Yes, the Quran has all kinds of strange ideas doesn't it? The Muslims definitely lack knowledge.

A lot of people see a similarity between Muhammad and Joseph Smith, the guy who started Mormonism.

Both men claimed to have received a special book from God which contains very weird things, to say the least!

Both used military force to protect their religion. Smith saw himself as a General and maybe a King.

 

[TheLearner]

The words God used to moses literally are translated as two words, Ego (I) Eime ( I Am)

It can be translated the eternal one, or the one who has always existed.

Notice, when jesus was contronted by the pharisees, and they mentioned Abraham, jesus used those same words, When he said before abraham was, I I Am (I have always existed)

Many people believe, as I do. Pre-incarnate jesus was the God of Israel who spoke those words to moses

The fact that they picked up stones to kill him is proof they clearly understood his claim to be God.

 

[TheLearner]

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