If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Dan_473]

The Catholics the same. Another written authority of man making the written tradition of God without effect. Any sect or demonation who oral traditions do add or subtract from his puts us in a place of being alert.



No fruit coming from sacred scripture.

All things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) reformed and restored the first century government of God as it did in the fifteenth century or any time period.

They under the law of the fathers .(out of sight out of mind) simply refused to dismiss the laws of their fathers as having no authority to be heard on high. Their oral traditions as commandments of men had no value when laid on the side of sola scriptura. It has no equal.

In the end worshiping or what they call venerating the fathers seen as if they were in the place of our heavenly father not seen . Paul turned it right side up and declared: "I worship the God of the fathers". . . . . Not the many fathers as God not seen . no faith. . . dead in ones trespasses and sin without a living hope in this presence world.

Acts 24:5-14 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands, Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him. And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so. Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are "written in the law and in the prophets:"

No adding or subtracting. Another way below of saying sola scruiptura the Christians one source of faith..

Isaiah 28: 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:(sola scriptura)


Isaiah 28: 11-13 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

I don't think the Catholics there are saying the scripture is corrupt.

One question you may wish to consider is how one knows what books are scripture without looking at Christian tradition.

 

[no1]

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the
priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at
the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught
at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego,
Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington
Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector
of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan
Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of
Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as
the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September
1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving
as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi
retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in
Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a
hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications
of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased
brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and
the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my
brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he
influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone
depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin
to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would
undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself
serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.
_

Even though they are wrong, by no means does that mean your brother went to hell.
"As many as believe on the name of Jesus, gave He them the power to become sons of God."
Just because someone is a Catholic, doesn't mean they are not a Christian or that they will go to hell.
Faith in Jesus Christ saves us, people don't loose that just because they pray to a so-called saint or say the rosary.
Yes, they are doing wrong, but so does everyone who fail to live by faith.
Not, in the faith, but in faith, or the world of faith.
I would expect to see your brother in heaven, because he was a believer, just like you.

 

[notuptome]

Even though they are wrong, by no means does that mean your brother went to hell.
"As many as believe on the name of Jesus, gave He them the power to become sons of God."
Just because someone is a Catholic, doesn't mean they are not a Christian or that they will go to hell.
Faith in Jesus Christ saves us, people don't loose that just because they pray to a so-called saint or say the rosary.
Yes, they are doing wrong, but so does everyone who fail to live by faith.
Not, in the faith, but in faith, or the world of faith.
I would expect to see your brother in heaven, because he was a believer, just like you.

Why would you expect to be in heaven?

Grace saves us faith is how we learn of grace. Faith we learn from Gods word and the action of the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[no1]

Why would you expect to be in heaven?

Grace saves us faith is how we learn of grace. Faith we learn from Gods word and the action of the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You mean, if I were a Catholic?
Grace saves ONLY because of God's faith in us.
We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

If the person received Christ or believed on Jesus' name, according to scripture, he is a son of God.
I believe what is written because I know God keeps His word or promises He made to us. Just like He does with Gal 2:8-9.

 

[garee]

I don't think the Catholics there are saying the scripture is corrupt.

One question you may wish to consider is how one knows what books are scripture without looking at Christian tradition.

I would say the same way one knows the words in the book.... by the witness of the book. Holy men of old were moved to perform the good will of God. Like the noble Barean's we can search daily being moved by the Holy Spirit. He must increase we must decrease.

 

[Dan_473]

I would say the same way one knows the words in the book.... by the witness of the book. Holy men of old were moved to perform the good will of God. Like the noble Barean's we can search daily being moved by the Holy Spirit. He must increase we must decrease.

Do you mean that everyone who prays and asks God to show them which books are inspired, everyone who does this comes up with the same list of 66 books?

 

[Jackson123]

I don't think lumen gentium is quite saying that

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

You speak English better than I speak any other language, but you might be missing some of the nuances in what is being said above.

If you say that two different people worship the same God, are you saying that they both believe exactly the same thing about God? Like maybe one person believes God inspired the King James Bible, and another person doesn't believe that? Are they still worshiping the same God?

This is where the idea of the nature of God comes in.
For example, Christians believe that there is the physical and the spiritual, and that God is not a physical being (though he incarnated himself into a physical body in Jesus). Hindus, I think, say that there is just one substance, and that the world is made out of "God stuff" or something like that.

So in that case, we're Christians and Hindus have a different view of the nature of God, it would make sense to say they are worshipping a different God.

But then it would look like Jews are probably worshipping a different God, since they think God's nature is different than Christians do. But then there's some things in the Bible that seem to indicate that Jews are worshiping the same God.

I don't think lumen gentium is quite saying that

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

You speak English better than I speak any other language, but you might be missing some of the nuances in what is being said above.

If you say that two different people worship the same God, are you saying that they both believe exactly the same thing about God? Like maybe one person believes God inspired the King James Bible, and another person doesn't believe that? Are they still worshiping the same God?

This is where the idea of the nature of God comes in.
For example, Christians believe that there is the physical and the spiritual, and that God is not a physical being (though he incarnated himself into a physical body in Jesus). Hindus, I think, say that there is just one substance, and that the world is made out of "God stuff" or something like that.

So in that case, we're Christians and Hindus have a different view of the nature of God, it would make sense to say they are worshipping a different God.

But then it would look like Jews are probably worshipping a different God, since they think God's nature is different than Christians do. But then there's some things in the Bible that seem to indicate that Jews are worshiping the same God.

Let me quote lumen gentium 2/16/126 one more time


126 But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all thing


Quote "But the plan of salvation also ..................among st These there are mohammedan" end quote


To me catholic Lie, mohamedan or islam not believe Jesus is God, how catholic say they are save.

Quote " ..........the faith of Abraham along with us adore merciful God " end quote


To me it mean catholic lie and say Islam, Abraham and Christian adore the same god.

you interprate Catholic not say abraham and Islam adore or share the same god?

Than I do not know why?

 

[Jackson123]

Ahh, I think we may be getting somewhere now.

Is Abraham God a trinity?

Yes.

 

[notuptome]

You mean, if I were a Catholic?
Grace saves ONLY because of God's faith in us.
We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

If the person received Christ or believed on Jesus' name, according to scripture, he is a son of God.
I believe what is written because I know God keeps His word or promises He made to us. Just like He does with Gal 2:8-9.

Great now all we must do is find that in Roman Catholic doctrine that is taught to the folks in their organization.

Grace is not dispensed through sacraments and the priests are not authorized to act as intercessors for sinners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Deuteronomy]

I don't think the Catholics there are saying the scripture is corrupt.

Hi Dan, I believe you are correct, the RCC would never say that the Scriptures are corrupt, because they make extensive use of the Bible to demonstrate that all of their "traditional" beliefs are from God, even their doctrines/dogmas which stand in stark opposition to God's word, such as Mary being an "immaculate conception" like her Son Jesus, ~the~ Immaculate Conception, was.

What the RCC teaches about the Christian faith is far and away correct (85-90% of it anyway), but when they bend the Scriptures, in an attempt to make them say what they need them to say to support their various non-Biblical doctrines (like the one I just mentioned above), they get things VERY wrong, unfortunately So, while the RCC would never say that the Scriptures are corrupt, they do, in fact, corrupt the Scriptures themselves in such cases, just like the the Jews did with their oral "Traditions" (their "Oral Torah", as they call it). As the Lord pointed out however, the Jews nullified/invalidated the word of God for the sake of their "Tradition" .. e.g. Matthew 15:4-6.

It should also be pointed out that as important as the oral traditions were to the Jews in Jesus' day, He never cited Jewish traditional beliefs as evidence that His teachings were from God. Rather, He always said, "it is written" (or He made some other similar statement), citing the written OT as His proof instead.

~Deut

 

[no1]

Great now all we must do is find that in Roman Catholic doctrine that is taught to the folks in their organization.

Grace is not dispensed through sacraments and the priests are not authorized to act as intercessors for sinners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But it is through faith, and don't they exude faith in God through their sacraments and intercessions?
I don't know much about the Catholic faith, even though for three years I lived in a very Catholic city with a Catholic friend, as well as my wife's family grew up with a mixture of the Catholic and Muslim faith.
And I'm not saying they are doing right, but I can't say much for many of the Protestant type churches either.
My point is, even though the church, not the people, but the church has many doctrinal discrepancies, I would think many of the people in the Catholic faith believe in Jesus.
One of the most important things for a believer to do is to follow the leading of the Spirit of God, and some have followed that leading to pray for people to get them healed, and some cast out evil spirits.
You cannot do that unless you believe in the name of Jesus.
Many Christian churches don't even do that.
I would say, before you judge all Catholic, to do so by their works, for Jesus said you will know them by their works, for a good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.
Because the bible says, in Rom 10:8-10, all who call Jesus lord and believe that for themselves personally, shall be save, but in Matt 7:21, Jesus said, "not everyone who calls me lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven..."
Here you have two promises, both true, but one will supersede the other.
One cannot cast out an evil spirit without first believing in or on the name of Jesus and yet both the person in the parable and Judas Iscariot went to hell and not heaven.
In fact, Judas was one of the disciples who went out with the seventy to cast out devil, healed the sick, and cleansed the lepers.
They truly believed with signs following, yet went to hell.

 

[Deuteronomy]

One question you may wish to consider is how one knows what books are scripture without looking at Christian tradition.

Hi again Dan, the Apostles knew which books & letters contained God's inspired/breathed words back in the 1st century when they were written .. cf 2 Peter 3:15-16, and they passed that knowledge along (handed it down) to their disciples/students and their congregants, and eventually thereby, to us today.

There is nothing wrong with/everything right about traditional teachings (be they oral or be they written) that have helped us know such things over the millennia, but these traditions were never intended to replace the Bible as our regula fidei (rule of faith), like the RCC has done with what I believe it now refers to as "living" Traditions.

~Deut

2 Peter 3​

15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. ​

16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

.

 

[Jackson123]

But it is through faith, and don't they exude faith in God through their sacraments and intercessions?
I don't know much about the Catholic faith, even though for three years I lived in a very Catholic city with a Catholic friend, as well as my wife's family grew up with a mixture of the Catholic and Muslim faith.
And I'm not saying they are doing right, but I can't say much for many of the Protestant type churches either.
My point is, even though the church, not the people, but the church has many doctrinal discrepancies, I would think many of the people in the Catholic faith believe in Jesus.
One of the most important things for a believer to do is to follow the leading of the Spirit of God, and some have followed that leading to pray for people to get them healed, and some cast out evil spirits.
You cannot do that unless you believe in the name of Jesus.
Many Christian churches don't even do that.
I would say, before you judge all Catholic, to do so by their works, for Jesus said you will know them by their works, for a good tree CANNOT produce bad fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.
Because the bible says, in Rom 10:8-10, all who call Jesus lord and believe that for themselves personally, shall be save, but in Matt 7:21, Jesus said, "not everyone who calls me lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven..."
Here you have two promises, both true, but one will supersede the other.
One cannot cast out an evil spirit without first believing in or on the name of Jesus and yet both the person in the parable and Judas Iscariot went to hell and not heaven.
In fact, Judas was one of the disciples who went out with the seventy to cast out devil, healed the sick, and cleansed the lepers.
They truly believed with signs following, yet went to hell.

I use to have catholic friend, he live at Surabaya East Java, Indonesia.

He pray to Mary and other saint. He believe certain saint have specialty,

For example if you have finance problem, pray to thus saint etc

St Luke was a doctor, so if you sick you better pray to him. That is what he believe

 

[garee]

Do you mean that everyone who prays and asks God to show them which books are inspired, everyone who does this comes up with the same list of 66 books?

I would say the 66 books are written by the same spirit of faith. One author of one faith the unseen things of God .

In the last chapter (Revelation ) he informs us he has sealed up the possibility of any additions until the end of time .

It does not seem that something could be missing ?.All of the laws and interpretation instruments seem to be in place.

It would seem something is missing to some?

How many books or chapters do you think should make up the whole? And why?

 

[garee]

I use to have catholic friend, he live at Surabaya East Java, Indonesia.

He pray to Mary and other saint. He believe certain saint have specialty,

For example if you have finance problem, pray to thus saint etc

St Luke was a doctor, so if you sick you better pray to him. That is what he believe

Yes, 3500 and rising gaining speed.. all having a specific work load as a request , some used in more than one

Catholicism is known for its necromancy doctrines. It's the source of their kind of faith (two kinds) as another kind of mediator other than that of Christ. .Take away necromancy as the foundation and it falls. No support.

 

[Jackson123]

Let me quote lumen gentium 2/16/126 one more time


126 But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all thing


Quote "But the plan of salvation also ..................among st These there are mohammedan" end quote


To me catholic Lie, mohamedan or islam not believe Jesus is God, how catholic say they are save.

Quote " ..........the faith of Abraham along with us adore merciful God " end quote


To me it mean catholic lie and say Islam, Abraham and Christian adore the same god.

you interprate Catholic not say abraham and Islam adore or share the same god?

Than I do not know why?

After pondering that part of lumen gentium I think,

Yes catholic and Islam share the same god, but not abraham

So catholic and Islam share the same god, abraham and Christian share the same god.

In other word, catholic and Christian not share the same god.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For example if you have finance problem, pray to thus saint etc

And if you are a thief pray to Dismas (who was saved and crucified), the patron saint of thieves?

 

[JamOn]

And if you are a thief pray to Dismas (who was saved and crucified), the patron saint of thieves?

Huh I’ve read into that and that name came from the gospel of Nicodemus and where did that come from.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Huh I’ve read into that and that name came from the gospel of Nicodemus and where did that come from.

Probably a legend. But Catholicism has incorporated many legends into its theology.

The whole idea of praying to the saints and Mary is unscriptural. It has led to the creation of *patron saints*. There is a patron saint for almost every occupation.

 

[JamOn]

Probably a legend. But Catholicism has incorporated many legends into its theology.

The whole idea of praying to the saints and Mary is unscriptural. It has led to the creation of *patron saints*. There is a patron saint for almost every occupation.

legends legions lol. A religion on crack,

I don’t get it I’ve been to a cat church the two books one there the other over there priest bouncing back and forth I’m not drinking from some common cup bunch of lips all over it, the outfits, swinging smoke, statues galore, probably the most nutty of groups with all the elaborate beliefs and practices.