Are we born into this world with the Spirit of Christ?

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Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,319
3,677
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#81
...anyone who has a part with Messiah must be "in covenant" with Him. That means not only believing He exists, but also doing what He says.
Hi Karraster, if our salvation is ~dependant~ upon what we do, even in part (our good works/our obedience), then why does the Bible tell us that we are saved by grace through faith ~apart~ from anything that we do .. e.g. John 5:24; Romans 3:28, 4:5, 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9 :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#82
Hi Karraster, if our salvation is ~dependant~ upon what we do, even in part (our good works/our obedience), then why does the Bible tell us that we are saved by grace through faith ~apart~ from anything that we do .. e.g. John 5:24; Romans 3:28, 4:5, 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9:unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.
Hi Deuteronomy, are you saying verses like this do not matter anymore? ~36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul; all they that hate me love death.”

Because, the whole counsel of the Word is good and wise! That's Messiah all thru scripture, from Alef to Tav.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,319
3,677
113
68
#83
The bottom line, is that when the translators chose the words believe, believer, and believing, they inadvertently changed the "object of Faith" from God Himself a relationship with a real living person, to God's word and His promises.
Hi Pisteuo, when did that happen?

When I say that I believe God's word, or that I believe that the promises He's made to us will come true, my faith is in the One who made those promises/spoke those words, not in the words or in the promises themselves.

Am I perhaps misunderstanding what you are saying somehow :unsure:

No one (who I know) puts their faith in the words/promises that we find in the Bible ~apart~ from putting their trust/faith in the One who spoke them. In fact, the only reason that I have faith in the words/promises of the Bible is because of the faith I have in the Author of those words/promises.

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I'll return to talking about the idea that pisteuo = a surrendered life in my next post (Dv), as I have several more questions.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,319
3,677
113
68
#84
Hi Deuteronomy, are you saying verses like this do not matter anymore? ~36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul; all they that hate me love death.”

Because, the whole counsel of the Word is good and wise! That's Messiah all thru scripture, from Alef to Tav.
Hi again Karraster, unfortunately, I don't believe that I'm following what you are saying, well, not all of it anyway.

Justification/Salvation has always been by faith, since the day that our progenitors first fell into sin, that is. For instance, "Abram believed God (he believed the promises that God made to him, that is), and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" .. Genesis 15:6.

Maybe it would help us to see how close or how far we are from being on the same page? For instance, the Bible tells us that we are "saved by grace" (e.g. Ephesians 2:8). So, what does being "saved by grace" mean to you?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I'm really tired and may have to call it a night right now, but I will reply tomorrow (Dv) if I see that you've gotten back to me :)
 
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Pisteuo

Guest
#85
Hi again Karraster, unfortunately, I don't believe that I'm following what you are saying, well, not all of it anyway.

Justification/Salvation has always been by faith, since the day that our progenitors first fell into sin, that is. For instance, "Abram believed God (he believed the promises that God made to him, that is), and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" .. Genesis 15:6.

Maybe it would help us to see how close or how far we are from being on the same page? For instance, the Bible tells us that we are "saved by grace" (e.g. Ephesians 2:8). So, what does being "saved by grace" mean to you?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I'm really tired and may have to call it a night right now, but I will reply tomorrow (Dv) if I see that you've gotten back to me :)
The Greek doesn't allow work, effort, and courage to be separated from pisteuo or saving Faith. Only the mistranslated English Ben's mandate that.

Not work , effort, or courage that would intend to better, add to, or replace the "completed" work of Christ " Grace" on the cross.
 
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Pisteuo

Guest
#86
Hi Pisteuo, when did that happen?

When I say that I believe God's word, or that I believe that the promises He's made to us will come true, my faith is in the One who made those promises/spoke those words, not in the words or in the promises themselves.

Am I perhaps misunderstanding what you are saying somehow :unsure:

No one (who I know) puts their faith in the words/promises that we find in the Bible ~apart~ from putting their trust/faith in the One who spoke them. In fact, the only reason that I have faith in the words/promises of the Bible is because of the faith I have in the Author of those words/promises.

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I'll return to talking about the idea that pisteuo = a surrendered life in my next post (Dv), as I have several more questions.
If you have "Faith" and are faithing towards Christ everyday, you would be continuously be surrendering your life to Him. Believing that he is accepting the surrendered life, maintaining the surrendered life, and sustaining the surrendered life. All the hundreds of daily decisions that you make every day would support the fact your life is nolonger your business anymore , but His business now.

That is NT pisteuo, saving Faith. Anything else is a half measure and will avail nothing?
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#87
I thought they were proofreading the material of the post before they allow the post.
That post was the worst I’ve seen on here.
'
when someone hacks a site, they don't need permission

its all in the code

I thought they acted pretty quick
 
Jun 13, 2014
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#88
I would like to discuss the Salvation process. And I want to start at the very beginning of everyones life.

I'll do this by asking a series of questions that will establish points of reference during our journey.

1) Are we born into this world with the Spirit of Christ already in us?

Yes or No?
No
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#89
Hi Karraster, if our salvation is ~dependant~ upon what we do, even in part (our good works/our obedience), then why does the Bible tell us that we are saved by grace through faith ~apart~ from anything that we do .. e.g. John 5:24; Romans 3:28, 4:5, 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9:unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.
That's just IT, Deuteronomy!
Salvation is NOT DEPENDENT on "good works/our obedience!" Or, would it be better put as "the Illusion of adoption" by grace through faith, is where "traditions of man's teachings", is "throwing believers under the bus", so to speak!
Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs WITH Christ; if so be that we suffer WITH him, that we may be also glorified together.
These "words on the page" teachings, seem quite simple and easy to do. In the "Spiritual reality" from where they are coming from? This is not as EASILY obtained!
Do you see the boldened WITH Christ? One cannot be a "joint heir" WITH Christ, and suffer WITH Christ, as long as one's cross IS IN Christ!
At some point? One is going to HAVE to "pick UP their OWN cross", to see how long and how far one can "carry on", so to speak as a "joint heir" WITH Christ!
Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature (flesh and blood) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature (flesh and blood) was made SUBJECT to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but BY REASON of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (this was done at "the garden of Eden" incident) In The HOPES OF? (see verse 19)

21 Because the creature itself (flesh and blood) also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (IN THE AGE TO COME!) :unsure: (Rapture?....WHAT Rapture? :unsure:)

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#90
oh good grief with this pisteo salvation and determining that most people must not be saved since they do not agree with the op

here is PISTEO from Thayer's Greek lexicon, very thorough and read as much or as little as you want


Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 4100: πιστεύω
πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; future πιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfect πεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29))) πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfect πεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, i. e.
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context, Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words, Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands
α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23; Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, John 4:50.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#91
lots and lots more here

IMO, even a cursory reading does not intend, let alone say, the position held by the op
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#92
If you have "Faith" and are faithing towards Christ everyday, you would be continuously be surrendering your life to Him. Believing that he is accepting the surrendered life, maintaining the surrendered life, and sustaining the surrendered life. All the hundreds of daily decisions that you make every day would support the fact your life is nolonger your business anymore , but His business now.

That is NT pisteuo, saving Faith. Anything else is a half measure and will avail nothing?
Good work man! Jumping in the deep end with both feets! Awesome!

Tell 'em about apostasy, and tradtions of man!

Tell 'em about if they wanna wait til Jesus comes back with that "rod of iron?"
That they'll more n likely be the ones being taught, rather then the ones, doing the teaching! ;)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#93
The Greek doesn't allow work, effort, and courage to be separated from pisteuo or saving Faith. Only the mistranslated English Ben's mandate that.

Not work , effort, or courage that would intend to better, add to, or replace the "completed" work of Christ " Grace" on the cross.
People intend to teach salvation by faith but what they are teaching is salvation by individuals works without even having a clue. They think works is what is handled (deeds) and faith is what is believed only.

Well, keeping the sabbath is works if someone believes. So works is actually an underlying belief and you are right.
If anyone is saved by their faith in Christ, then how can we say that the faith is not theirs, they are actually saved by what they do.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#94
I thought they were proofreading the material of the post before they allow the post.
That post was the worst I’ve seen on here.
The person granted membership signs in.... once they are in, use either a bot or worm to infiltrate the threads.

I am assuming the site has a strong enough firewall to prevent being hacked from some other back door, in which case all emails, personal data could be compromised.... I do not think that was the case last night though.

Typically those that steal data do it more subversively.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#95
oh good grief with this pisteo salvation and determining that most people must not be saved since they do not agree with the op

here is PISTEO from Thayer's Greek lexicon, very thorough and read as much or as little as you want


Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 4100: πιστεύω
πιστεύω; imperfect ἐπίστευον; future πιστεύσω; 1 aorist ἐπίστευσα; perfect πεπίστευκα; pluperfect (without augment, cf. Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; (Buttmann, 33 (29))) πεπιστεύκειν (Acts 14:23); passive perfect πεπίστευμαι; 1 aorist ἐπιστεύθην; (πιστός); the Sept. for הֶאֱמִין; in classical Greek from Aeschyl, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides down; to believe, i. e.
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context, Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words, Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands
α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23; Luke 8:50; John 11:40; followed by ὅτι, Matthew 9:28; Mark 11:23; (Hebrews 11:6); τῷ λόγῳ, ᾧ (ὅν) εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, John 4:50.
It's not that people are not saved! It's that people are not as fully saved, as they could be! And, are being "taught and led to believe."
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#96
It's not that people are not saved! It's that people are not as fully saved, as they could be! And, are being "taught and led to believe."

sounds more like a prob with sanctification

the Greek for 'saved' (you prob know this) is actually covering all 3 tenses

have been, are and will be

I am no expert in Greek but neither is the op so let's all walk in circles and bump into each other :geek:
 
P

Pisteuo

Guest
#97
Good work man! Jumping in the deep end with both feets! Awesome!

Tell 'em about apostasy, and tradtions of man!

Tell 'em about if they wanna wait til Jesus comes back with that "rod of iron?"
That they'll more n likely be the ones being taught, rather then the ones, doing the teaching! ;)
Traditions make void the word of God!

The rod of iron is called a " tribulum," the rod that is used to beat wheat from the chaff. It's also where we get the word " tribulation".
 
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Pisteuo

Guest
#98
sounds more like a prob with sanctification

the Greek for 'saved' (you prob know this) is actually covering all 3 tenses

have been, are and will be

I am no expert in Greek but neither is the op so let's all walk in circles and bump into each other :geek:
The word "sanctification" simply means to be separated from.

Justification, means to be just like Christ.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#99
The word "sanctification" simply means to be separated from.

Justification, means to be just like Christ.

nope

man I hope you haven't quit your day job to teach

holy means separation or separate from. God is holy

sanctified means set apart as in holy...what Jesus has done for believers

justification means what is says. it means to be justified IN Christ

let me know when you have become just like Him :rolleyes:

you do know what positional justification is? prolly not
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
The person granted membership signs in.... once they are in, use either a bot or worm to infiltrate the threads.

I am assuming the site has a strong enough firewall to prevent being hacked from some other back door, in which case all emails, personal data could be compromised.... I do not think that was the case last night though.

Typically those that steal data do it more subversively.

yeah well he didn't sign in with that profile

I've created a number of WP sites, not that anyone cares, and have incurred brute force attacks from overseas

that attack, I think, was from overseas and I believe you could see the code over the photos...could be wrong but it kinda looked like it

it's getting worse all the time

I don't do WP anymore. too much hassle with all things you need to do to secure your site

yeah

whatever

this was not the case last night, but hackers will gain access to even a simple site in order to use it to bounce around and stay hidden

you can follow an ISP but if the activity is hidden behind another site and several are used for dirty work, then not so easy

the original site can still be used and sometimes the hackee does not even know that has happened

of course last night was not for the purpose of using the site ,,,just bombing it

I know

since you have me on ignore :sneaky: