Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[posthuman]

In venues like this, there are people who do teach, or preach, pretty adamantly concerning the keeping of the sabbath. These are the people that have been "classified", aka "labeled", as "Hebrew Roots!"

i wouldn't call something 'Hebrew roots' just because it includes commanding physical sabbath observance. SDA isn't Hebrew roots, tho Clarence Dodd was SDA. not every SDA uses a 'holy names' version of scripture for example - and not every 'Hebrew roots' person uses that version, tho scrupulously saying 'Yohanan' instead of John etc is kind of an hallmark.
there are also all kinds of evangelicals who have the idea that sunday is sabbath, and call going to church on that day 'sabbath observance' -- along with either implicitly or explicitly commanding believers to do so. that's not 'Hebrew roots' ((and it's not really sabbath observance either)).

 

[posthuman]

To be precise, Jesus never told the Jews to stop keeping the law to be saved. Even the Matthew's version of the Great Commission, he reminded his apostles to remind them to obey everything. We Gentiles weren't even in the picture then.

But after the Jews rejected him again, about a year after he was crucified, the ascended Christ gave Paul a new message to share with the Gentiles, Galatians 1:11-12. The Law of Moses was never given to us Gentiles in the first place.

in Matthew 28 He says 'teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you'
to say what you have said, you have to make the leap there that this means Torah, tho it's not specified - and as you pointed to Galatians, you must realize that in the epistles this is not the interpretation and conclusion the apostles drew, but do you infer a difference between how a gentile is saved and how a Jew is saved?

it's worth repeating:

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another:
just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
(John 13:34) ​

​

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying,
"This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."
(Luke 22:20)​

​

In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first;
and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.
(Hebrews 8:13) ​

in my understanding the thread title / OP question is a settled one.
yes, look at Hebrews 8:13. God expects us to meditate on His words and put two & two together, just as the author of Hebrews has - i mentioned to someone earlier, tho there's no controversy over whether blood sacrifices must still be made, Christ never explicitly said so; but we all are able to apply our brains to the NT and come away with that conclusion.


altho.. as soon as i say that, watch someone join the forum preaching a return to the daily sacrifices lol -- preaching that we must keep "all the commandments" and being sincere this time, not picking and choosing from them, thinking to teach us all to offer goats and bulls to Jesus. then that person will ask for donations towards rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem...
@NayborBear such a person would def. deserve the 'Hebrew roots' classification

 

[lightbearer]

We keep the law by having faith in Him.

We keep the Law because we have the Faith of Him through His indwelling Spirit.
We are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us, but Christ liveth in us, and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave himself for us.

​

 

[Guojing]

in Matthew 28 He says 'teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you'
to say what you have said, you have to make the leap there that this means Torah, tho it's not specified - and as you pointed to Galatians, you must realize that in the epistles this is not the interpretation and conclusion the apostles drew, but do you infer a difference between how a gentile is saved and how a Jew is saved?

it's worth repeating:

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: ​

just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.​

(John 13:34) ​

​

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, ​

"This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."​

(Luke 22:20)​

​

In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; ​

and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing. ​

(Hebrews 8:13) ​

in my understanding the thread title / OP question is a settled one.
yes, look at Hebrews 8:13. God expects us to meditate on His words and put two & two together, just as the author of Hebrews has - i mentioned to someone earlier, tho there's no controversy over whether blood sacrifices must still be made, Christ never explicitly said so; but we all are able to apply our brains to the NT and come away with that conclusion.


altho.. as soon as i say that, watch someone join the forum preaching a return to the daily sacrifices lol -- preaching that we must keep "all the commandments" and being sincere this time, not picking and choosing from them, thinking to teach us all to offer goats and bulls to Jesus. then that person will ask for donations towards rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem...
@NayborBear such a person would def. deserve the 'Hebrew roots' classification

Everything that Jesus commanded the Jews to do in the 4 gospels, especially in Matthew, would be a straightforward interpretation.

The revelations that paul got from the ascended Christ were unknown then

 

[posthuman]

in my understanding the thread title / OP question is a settled one.
yes, look at Hebrews 8:13. God expects us to meditate on His words and put two & two together, just as the author of Hebrews has - i mentioned to someone earlier, tho there's no controversy over whether blood sacrifices must still be made, Christ never explicitly said so; but we all are able to apply our brains to the NT and come away with that conclusion.

it's the same here, as with the rich young ruler who came to Christ and called him 'good teacher' -- asking what he must "do" to inherit life.
Jesus tells him, 'no one is good but God' -- and he's supposed to put 2 + 2 and realize that he's not talking to a rabbi, but to God Himself in human flesh.
he does not make this connection, tho, during their conversation - so he does not have faith, and is instructed the same way anyone without faith is. remember in Exodus 16, the sabbath is first given in order to test the Israelites, whether they will obey the LORD or not - and they fail. some are still gathering more manna then they are supposed to, trying to keep it longer, etc. and so they come to Sinai and are given a covenant of law -- vis-a-vis, "line upon line, precept upon precept, so that they may go, and fall backward, be broken, and snared, and taken:" because He said to them, here is rest, but they would not hear ((re: Isaiah 28)).
they make a covenant with death, but it shall not stand.

yet can that rich young ruler be saved? Jesus tells him he lacks something, and gives him a command nowhere found in Torah - to sell everything and give it to the poor. Jesus is not giving him Torah: Torah is what this rich young man showed up with, boasting of, all the while knowing within himself that it was insufficient to grant life: and so he came to Christ, tho he did not know Who it was he spoke with.
the disciples see this and marvel, thinking who in the world can be saved? Jesus says, with man it is impossible ((blowing up the inheritance of life by keeping that ministration engraved on stones)) but with God, all things are possible.
all things.
including the possibility that this rich man went home and the truth dawned on him one day, and he believed. he did, after all, go away sad: and there is a great inference to be made from that fact - why was he sad?

 

[posthuman]

Everything that Jesus commanded the Jews to do in the 4 gospels, especially in Matthew, would be a straightforward interpretation.

The revelations that paul got from the ascended Christ were unknown then

yes, Peter hadn't even figured out that salvation had come to the gentiles at that point, and Saul was still 'blameless' according to the righteousness of the law but being blind to the truth, hunting down and handing over to death what he thought were unconscionable heretics worshiping a mere man.

but what Paul later writes, he bases entirely on the facts of Christ's death & resurrection, and the whole of scripture that came before him. he is enlightened by the Holy Ghost and finally sees Christ testified of from beginning to end.

 

[Guojing]

yes, Peter hadn't even figured out that salvation had come to the gentiles at that point, and Saul was still 'blameless' according to the righteousness of the law but being blind to the truth, hunting down and handing over to death what he thought were unconscionable heretics worshiping a mere man.

but what Paul later writes, he bases entirely on the facts of Christ's death & resurrection, and the whole of scripture that came before him. he is enlightened by the Holy Ghost and finally sees Christ testified of from beginning to end.

Peter was not suppose to figure that out. To the Jews, they were all looking for the realization of the physical kingdom where Jesus will be the king sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem. For that to happen the Jewish nation must accept Jesus as their King.

The Jews were supposed to move from there and spread the same good news to all the Gentiles after the Jewish nation accept Jesus as their King. That was the well known prophecy known by every Jew who studied the OT. Zechariah 8:23 is an example of that.

Of course, the nation rejected Jesus, and everything changed after that.

 

[lightbearer]

Read it again please. Because it does not say that, It says, "The word equals Christ because it is of and through Christ."

It does Not say Christ=law but," What is the word of Faith in which we preach? Christ, through which the word is in the heart and mouth."
And goes on to to say, "So the Gift of Christ in the Heart, through which His word, his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law are in the heart and mouth was available at the beginning of Moses Ministry if not before."

Furthermore it says, We are explicitly speaking about Christ. Through Whom the Law; the word, His commandments went from tables of stone and parchment to fleshly tables of the heart.

And in closing it states,
"The issue is trying to obey GOD from the letter. The New ministration is obedience from the heart through Christ.
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For Christ (through which the word, the law, His commandments are placed in the heart, mind and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rom 1:5; 10:4)

For it is GOD that works in us both to will do HIS good pleasure. For in Him we live, and move, and have our being.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
(Heb 8:10-11 KJV)

posthuman said:

A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(John 13:34)

And How did He love us? The Word manifested in the flesh walked in the Word, the Law, the commandments of God. He Loved God with all His heart, mind, and soul and His fellow man the same. On these two depend, hinge, hang all the Law, the commandments, the Love that is of God.

John 5:16-17
For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

So you believe as do the Jews of that moment? That Jesus through God sinned. That healing and doing good deeds on the Sabbath is a sin?

If one has Christ, the word, God's Law, in their heart, mind and mouth. If they are the new man in Christ. All things new and of God. If we are Love because HE is Love and it is He that works in us both to will and do His Good pleasure. Our behavior is no longer of the letter but of the heart. A new ministration. No longer from ink and Tables of Stone but of the fleshly tables of the heart through God's Spirit. A new creature created in Christ Jesus. We who have been Baptized, have put on Christ. We are dead nevertheless we live, yet not us but Christ liveth in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith of Son of GOD, Christ, It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. THE NEW MINISTRATION! Christ in us the hope of Glory.

 

[SimpleGardner]

If one looks at it in a light, that when they no longer can make a solid defense in their refutations against you, and start into "pigeon-holing", aka "name calling", "labeling?"
They have essentially, lost their argument/s.
This same similarity of "name calling", seems so to be tactics the political left resorts to as well. Does it not?
When you start walking away from the law and statutes of God, and "fall back", if you will, on "traditions of man?
In "politics", it's called precedent!
In religion? It's called APOSTASY!

Greetings NayborBear,

I have asked many of them, not all, and they identify with "Reformed Theology" which is Calvanism, which is also predestination. Now before we put on a frown, there is very much in their doctrinal base that we agree upon and just a couple tenets that we have dissimilar understandings of. Personally, when it comes to "Church Doctrine", knowing I have been given a desire to know Gods will, I trust the Holy Spirit as a guide through the Word of God to establish His absolute doctrine over that of a sectarian religion.

If there is one thing I have learned, it is that "religion" is the box man has put God into! Any time men establish standards they have their own Pharisees (Lawyers) scrutinizing your actions according to their doctrines/laws/tenets. Many religions have tenets or guidelines they share lovingly with potential converts, then they show them as DOCTRINES as they "Indoctrinate" them once within their halls and then they become LAWS over time through which they Enforce their "tenets". Many churches have their "Pharisees" who review pay stubs, checking accounts and tithes to verify strict compliance to church Tithe doctrines! That is the tip of the iceberg for many "churches" and before we become too rebellious against these practices remember the early churches in acts and the example of Ananias and his wife when they lied to the believers. But when those whose purpose it is to be helpers within a body of believers wield their authority like the Pharisees did with brutality and loveless militancy, then it becomes a burden to the people! It becomes legalism where gentle guidance becomes comply or die! So the very thing that these individuals hate the most is what they have become! Strict, unloving enforcers of doctrine (some good doctrines and some questionable) Legalists! It must be frustrating to them to have us who are beyond arms length who have no fellowship in common that we rely upon and love which they can leverage against us, so they use name calling and enumerate the curses and damnation's that await the non compliant. They draw men into a pseudo fellowship on here and then pull it away at the least infraction and call them names and write them off hoping the rest of those who do not know for sure what is going on will join the mob in their condemnation.

I have commented to some of them that they wield their doctrine like baseball bats with nails in them as that is what I feel when I share my testimonies of how Gods Grace has transformed my mind to love His will/Laws;

Rom 12:1-2 KJVA I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Sadly the very thing, THE VERY THING, they rail on the most, which is "Legalism" is the very thing that they have become!
Even if their doctrine was sound and I am not saying it is, why don't they preach these words from Paul?

Rom 14:1-12 NIV Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. (2) One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. (3) The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. (4) Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (5) One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (6) He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (7) For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. (8) If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. (9) For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (10) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. (11) It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, "every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" (12) So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Bless YHWH!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can't wait until Judgement Day. There is no guessing on my part whether or not that "one and done" repentance works or not. (Just doesn't sound like my Father Gods way). He likes interaction in our lives. Knowing we are going to mess up brings us back talking to Him all the time. He gets to watch us grow and hear about it and give us advice and help. And we get to take an accounting of who we are and how we are progressing. I remember when I first started confessing. There was lots of that. Now not so much at all, just more thanking Him for all the things I see and do and experience and I have an awful lot to be grateful for. I do some of my best communicating during my sessions on my knees. I seriously can't wait. I am positive the "info" in the "Bad Book" is miniscule and the "Good Book" is loaded down. I really can't hardly wait. I am not sure why someone would look at my life and think it isn't the most peaceful ever.

The more you post the more you prove you have no idea about what true grace believers believe.

You cant wait till judgment day? Niether can we. As paul said, to be absent from the ody is to be present with the Lord. I only pray you HAD that assurance. How you can believe in NOSAS and not be scared for your eternity simply amazes me. And do not strt your we love sin, and hate being obedient crap. Thats a lie. And we are quite frankly getting sick of hearing this non truth about Gods true children. Who not only LOVE GOD but in FAITH seek to love and serve him and serve others. To seek after the things of the spirit. And in doing so. KNOW we will not succumb to the lusts of the flesh.

You all think you do that bt following the law. Taking Gods law outside its purpose and thinking it is what makes you so righteous,, and boasting how thankful your not like “us sinners”!

Well yeah, we can not wait until judgment day. We just pray God does not tell so many, he never knew them because they THOUGHT they were so obedient doing all these works of CHrist in his name, yet as it turned out. All they did was practice unrighteousness, Because they NEvER came to saving faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scripture tells us with the measure we judge it is the measure we will be judged with, ( paraphrasing) so I want to be lenient to all for obvious reasons. I observe Sabbath, because that's my understanding and I love the Sabbath, consider it a wonderful gift. My husband does not. It is not a problem in our house at all, we respect each other's walk with Almighty, and trust in Him not our ability. However, on this thread the question is, did Jesus say nevermind the commandments? I maintain He did not.

My parents/grandparents were God fearing people, they did not observe Sabbath. I hope you see where I'm coming from, I do not judge a person for not observing Sabbath. Many people who love God have not and they did not think the Bible said they needed to. Is there one person who knows all the answers? No. But here we are trying to find truth and that's what I'm looking for. Can't see where Paul contradicts the other NT writers. He just has a different way of speaking.

Of course jesus did not say his commandments were done.

What he did say, Was what they were given for (purpose) and how we have the ability to obey them (love)

Something Israel and sadly many legalists today can not understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We keep the Law because we have the Faith of Him through His indwelling Spirit.
We are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us, but Christ liveth in us, and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave himself for us.

​

So you do not sin? Not even once?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Peter was not suppose to figure that out. To the Jews, they were all looking for the realization of the physical kingdom where Jesus will be the king sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem. For that to happen the Jewish nation must accept Jesus as their King.

The Jews were supposed to move from there and spread the same good news to all the Gentiles after the Jewish nation accept Jesus as their King. That was the well known prophecy known by every Jew who studied the OT. Zechariah 8:23 is an example of that.

Of course, the nation rejected Jesus, and everything changed after that.

Greetings Guojing,

What a great point about the proximity to the "kingdom" that the Southern Kingdom of Judah had regarding their awaited King!

Sometime I think about Judah's centuries old disdain for the divorced/put away/idolotrous borthers of the tribes of the Northern House of Israel. Israel was so bad centuries before that God himself determined that He could either Kill them with curses of divorce them and spare them, and technically, His love for Abraham and His promise/covenant which he swore to Abraham was a factor in His mercy. But when Judah, who as the parable of the prodigal son puts it;


Luk 15:28-31 NIV "The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. (29) But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. (30) But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!' (31) "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

The men of Judah obviously felt slighted, and Jesus tried to bring him past his disdain for those who had betrayed their God in the past. But if Judah was honest he/they would have to admit their own shortcomings;

Jer 3:7-10 NIV I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. (8) I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. (9) Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. (10) In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.

But all in all it's hard to put one self in the mind of men who have centuries even millinea of history on the very matter that plagues them.

By the way, when these guys like EG and Post Human say things like Saul was "blameless" according to the Law for his actions I would like them to show me where the Law/Torah gave them license to Kill the "believers". I will believe it when I see it. Be Well SG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Greetings NayborBear,

I have asked many of them, not all, and they identify with "Reformed Theology" which is Calvanism, which is also predestination. Now before we put on a frown, there is very much in their doctrinal base that we agree upon and just a couple tenets that we have dissimilar understandings of. Personally, when it comes to "Church Doctrine", knowing I have been given a desire to know Gods will, I trust the Holy Spirit as a guide through the Word of God to establish His absolute doctrine over that of a sectarian religion.

If there is one thing I have learned, it is that "religion" is the box man has put God into! Any time men establish standards they have their own Pharisees (Lawyers) scrutinizing your actions according to their doctrines/laws/tenets. Many religions have tenets or guidelines they share lovingly with potential converts, then they show them as DOCTRINES as they "Indoctrinate" them once within their halls and then they become LAWS over time through which they Enforce their "tenets". Many churches have their "Pharisees" who review pay stubs, checking accounts and tithes to verify strict compliance to church Tithe doctrines! That is the tip of the iceberg for many "churches" and before we become too rebellious against these practices remember the early churches in acts and the example of Ananias and his wife when they lied to the believers. But when those whose purpose it is to be helpers within a body of believers wield their authority like the Pharisees did with brutality and loveless militancy, then it becomes a burden to the people! It becomes legalism where gentle guidance becomes comply or die! So the very thing that these individuals hate the most is what they have become! Strict, unloving enforcers of doctrine (some good doctrines and some questionable) Legalists! It must be frustrating to them to have us who are beyond arms length who have no fellowship in common that we rely upon and love which they can leverage against us, so they use name calling and enumerate the curses and damnation's that await the non compliant. They draw men into a pseudo fellowship on here and then pull it away at the least infraction and call them names and write them off hoping the rest of those who do not know for sure what is going on will join the mob in their condemnation.

I have commented to some of them that they wield their doctrine like baseball bats with nails in them as that is what I feel when I share my testimonies of how Gods Grace has transformed my mind to love His will/Laws;

Rom 12:1-2 KJVA I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Sadly the very thing, THE VERY THING, they rail on the most, which is "Legalism" is the very thing that they have become!
Even if their doctrine was sound and I am not saying it is, why don't they preach these words from Paul?

Rom 14:1-12 NIV Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. (2) One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. (3) The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. (4) Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (5) One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (6) He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (7) For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. (8) If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. (9) For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (10) You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. (11) It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, "every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" (12) So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Bless YHWH!

You need to stop making this in to a calvinist debate

That would be like a person saying everyone who believes in NOSAS is comes from an arminian background.

If we did this, we coule NEVER come to understand what you believe, because we woudl have you pegged into a certain group. Which most of you do not follow. And we would continue to say things which you do not believe.

Most likely, this is why you have no comprehension of things mst f us here believe, and why you and those with you CONTINUALLY show ignorance of our faith by claiming things which are not true

 

[posthuman]

This same similarity of "name calling", seems so to be tactics the political left resorts to as well. Does it not?

Sounds to me like you are 'pigeon holing' whoever it is you are calling the 'political left' in exactly the same way you are accusing

 

[SimpleGardner]

Right. I saw that too. So much is said here it's inevitable there will be misunderstandings. I think the big difference is do we love each other like brothers and sisters? Is that not the 2nd most important commandment? Now SG, I gotta say, you are easy to love. You are so kind and gentle it makes me want to hear what you have to say. Also, there are others here that I relate to and connect with. What must eternity be like? Will we be able to talk among ourselves and discuss the truth? Surely we will.

Thank you kindly for the encouragement...Can you imagine being in the presence of Jesus!? I know so many people who admire strength, pride, power, and then there are many who have come to treasure the "meek and lowly" Jesus! The currency of the Kingdom of heaven is humility! Just like Jesus tried to point out to the many whose thinking has been inverted by this current evil world, that to be "great" in the Kingdom of Heaven you have to be a "servant", you have to be like a little child. What a glorious glimpse into what true greatness is! Lowliness, humility, childlike affection and gentleness, yet with the power of the Almighty backing it up! When I think of the passage'

Heb 13:1-3 NIV Keep on loving each other as brothers. (2) Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. (3) Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

I used to think of how the angels must have been "dressed down", sort of incognito, so noone would recognize them, but what if the Angels are nothing to look at at all, but are humble servants who shun the trappings that this world teaches to be beautiful. What if when we saw a poor person, shabbily dressed, but covered and satisfied we immediately saw a thing of beauty but when we saw a person with fancy clothes and car we thought of a sad testimony of a life moving in the wrong direction? Would people think we were aiming too low? I'm not espousing asceticism, but I am saying that I have found the heart of Jesus dwells closer to the poor and humble however offensive I once came to view them.

I don't know how I got here, but yes;


Psa 133:1-3 NIV A song of ascents. Of David. How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity! (2) It is like precious oil poured on the head, running down on the beard, running down on Aaron's beard, down upon the collar of his robes. (3) It is as if the dew of Hermon were falling on Mount Zion. For there the LORD bestows his blessing, even life forevermore.

 

[gb9]

You need to stop making this in to a calvinist debate

That would be like a person saying everyone who believes in NOSAS is comes from an arminian background.

If we did this, we coule NEVER come to understand what you believe, because we woudl have you pegged into a certain group. Which most of you do not follow. And we would continue to say things which you do not believe.

Most likely, this is why you have no comprehension of things mst f us here believe, and why you and those with you CONTINUALLY show ignorance of our faith by claiming things which are not true

this is not about calvanism. this is not about osas
all they do is shift and duck and dodge and accuse and refuse to say what they specifically believe, and just throw out accusations.

makes me wonder, if they are so right about the Law and the Sabbath , and we have it all wrong, then why not go ahead and say what they really believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is not about calvanism. this is not about osas
all they do is shift and duck and dodge and accuse and refuse to say what they specifically believe, and just throw out accusations.

makes me wonder, if they are so right about the Law and the Sabbath , and we have it all wrong, then why not go ahead and say what they really believe.

I used to be this way. Because I was indoctrinated. I heard it over and over, this is what these people believe. This is why they believe the way they do. They love their sin, They Hate Gods law. They think you can say a prayer and magically your saved, blah bah blah blah blah

The sad part and hard part is when you trust those who are over you. You believe what they say,, And its hard to tear away from those things, It took me years..I still have some things I am sure I have not given up..lol

 

[SimpleGardner]

this is not about calvanism. this is not about osas
all they do is shift and duck and dodge and accuse and refuse to say what they specifically believe, and just throw out accusations.

makes me wonder, if they are so right about the Law and the Sabbath , and we have it all wrong, then why not go ahead and say what they really believe.

Not trying to indict anything but the hardness or coldness and legalistic insistence that is being used to make points.

I am not sure what osas is....oh, oh, got it once saved always saved.

This gets tiresome to everyone, not just you guys. We need to start a new thread on the blessedness Gardening and Fishing!

I kind you not! I have one leghorn (pronounced leggern here in the South) who, when I'm in the corn hangs around my feet so I can pick her up to get at the Japaneese beetles! I can walk along and she literally pecks them off like a machine gun gunner! It's hilarious!

 

[posthuman]

So you believe as do the Jews of that moment? That Jesus through God sinned. That healing and doing good deeds on the Sabbath is a sin?

Have i really communicated so poorly that you believe i am accusing God of sin?