**BUMP**
if any of us is not seeing Christ in the scripture we quote, we do not understand what we are reading.
Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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**BUMP**
if any of us is not seeing Christ in the scripture we quote, we do not understand what we are reading.
Mat 4:7 KJVA Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
that's "Οὐκ ἐκπειράσεις Κύριον" -- you shall not test the Lord ((Strong's 1598))
in James it's "Θεὸς ἀπείραστός ἐστιν" -- God cannot be tempted ((Strong's 551))
the kjv isn't always the most accurate.
Right and if you look into the context of the time I used it it was in reference to unnecessarily "testing" the Grace of God.
Good differentiation PH!
K
Karraster
Guest
Right. I saw that too. So much is said here it's inevitable there will be misunderstandings. I think the big difference is do we love each other like brothers and sisters? Is that not the 2nd most important commandment? Now SG, I gotta say, you are easy to love. You are so kind and gentle it makes me want to hear what you have to say. Also, there are others here that I relate to and connect with. What must eternity be like? Will we be able to talk among ourselves and discuss the truth? Surely we will.Right and if you look into the context of the time I used it it was in reference to unnecessarily "testing" the Grace of God.
Good differentiation PH!
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
If one looks at it in a light, that when they no longer can make a solid defense in their refutations against you, and start into "pigeon-holing", aka "name calling", "labeling?"
They have essentially, lost their argument/s.
This same similarity of "name calling", seems so to be tactics the political left resorts to as well. Does it not?
When you start walking away from the law and statutes of God, and "fall back", if you will, on "traditions of man?
In "politics", it's called precedent!
In religion? It's called APOSTASY!
K
Karraster
Guest
Please notice I am not making a case for Sabbath risen or Sunday risen. What would be the point? To speculate and then make doctrine is at best, error.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The Socinians held to a rationalistic approach to Scripture and to faith. This philosophical approach, especially in regard to biblical doctrine, declares that all religious matters must be fully reconcilable with human reason, and that theological matters pertaining to the nature of God cannot be beyond the finite understanding of the human mind.
1 Corinthians 2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
In venues like this, there are people who do teach, or preach, pretty adamantly concerning the keeping of the sabbath. These are the people that have been "classified", aka "labeled", as "Hebrew Roots!"
And rightly so, in my opinion. As Paul taught that "One day is as another." "Should one man observe (a) sabbath, say like one a thursday?" (paraphrasing here) "Or another man observe sabbath, on every other Tuesday?" That's cool! Or? Should a man choose not to observe any sabbath at all? He must be a workaholic!
No, just kidding! Thing is God knows a man's heart, and its intentions!
What occurs is when people in the BDF? And, let's face it. "The world" in general, start s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g these parameters in a prejudging of anyone even mentioning (God forbid!) the "law" as given to Moses, as "Hebrew Roots?"
The "what" they are showing, is how "soconian", and actually "human" their mindset is.
K
Karraster
Guest
Have we established that in fact Jesus never did tell us to stop keeping the law? If I understand correctly, you agree He did not, but that Paul was given authority to "change" what our Messiah taught? I'm paraphrasing, please correct me if my understanding is wrong.
It always bothered me, that verse :
Matt 23:1-12: “ Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, v.2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
Because, wow are we in trouble if this verse is translated correctly. The Pharisees had rules for every action in life right down to which shoe to put on first in the morning. Handwashing, you name it, they have rules and regulations for it I don't care what it is. We know Messiah was always saying He didn't care too much for the takanot and maasim of the Pharisees, that they break The Commandments to follow their own made up rules. So why would Messiah turn around and tell us to follow their man made rules?
The answer is in the translation a word "he" translated "they". The Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew has it right:
“The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore all that he says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot ,Ibe,) and their precedents (ma’asim nhagn) do not do, because they talk but they do not do.”
Says Nehemia Gordon, “In the Hebrew Matthew, Yeshua is telling his disciples not to obey the Pharisees. If their claim to authority is that they sit in Moses’ seat, then diligently do as Moses says!” (page 48).
Information is coming to light that my grandmothers/fathers did not have access to. Very exciting to find these jewels. I
K
Karraster
Guest
Scripture tells us with the measure we judge it is the measure we will be judged with, ( paraphrasing) so I want to be lenient to all for obvious reasons. I observe Sabbath, because that's my understanding and I love the Sabbath, consider it a wonderful gift. My husband does not. It is not a problem in our house at all, we respect each other's walk with Almighty, and trust in Him not our ability. However, on this thread the question is, did Jesus say nevermind the commandments? I maintain He did not.In venues like this, there are people who do teach, or preach, pretty adamantly concerning the keeping of the sabbath. These are the people that have been "classified", aka "labeled", as "Hebrew Roots!"
And rightly so, in my opinion. As Paul taught that "One day is as another." "Should one man observe (a) sabbath, say like one a thursday?" (paraphrasing here) "Or another man observe sabbath, on every other Tuesday?" That's cool! Or? Should a man choose not to observe any sabbath at all? He must be a workaholic!
Thing is God knows a man's heart, and its intentions!
What occurs is when people in the BDF? And, let's face it. "The world" in general, start s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g these parameters in a prejudging of anyone even mentioning (God forbid!) the "law" as given to Moses, as "Hebrew Roots?"
The "what" they are showing, is how "soconian", and actually "human" their mindset is.
My parents/grandparents were God fearing people, they did not observe Sabbath. I hope you see where I'm coming from, I do not judge a person for not observing Sabbath. Many people who love God have not and they did not think the Bible said they needed to. Is there one person who knows all the answers? No. But here we are trying to find truth and that's what I'm looking for. Can't see where Paul contradicts the other NT writers. He just has a different way of speaking.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Wondering the "why" believers are not so willing to be judged.
So, they shy away from this.Am I perfect? Uh? No!
On the other hand, by me being judged? God Hasn't kilt me off! Inasmuch as I also believe that God shall not judge one, more then one can bare. Or? If coming to a place where one is not able in "baring judgement", at that time? Giving one a way out! At the "cross of Christ!"
I have found it has made me a much stronger Christian, and has given an ability in seeing things many believers can't.
For God shall never leave, nor FORSAKE you! NEVER!
Isaiah 28
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
This is how the "grafting process" is done! So that all the "fruit of the Spirit", is in harmony within the believer! And, not "lop-sided."
The "fear" of being judged on one facet, or another, of one's spirit, within a oneself, is what causes the "lop-sidedness."
Wondering the "why" believers are not so willing to be judged.
Am I perfect? Uh? No!
On the other hand, by me being judged? God Hasn't kilt me off! Inasmuch as I also believe that God shall not judge one, more then one can bare. Or? If coming to a place where one is not able in "baring judgement", at that time? Giving one a way out! At the "cross of Christ!"
I have found it has made me a much stronger Christian, and has given an ability in seeing things many believers can't.
For God shall never leave, nor FORSAKE you! NEVER!
Isaiah 28
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
This is how the "grafting process" is done! So that all the "fruit of the Spirit", is in harmony within the believer! And, not "lop-sided."
The "fear" of being judged on one facet, or another, of one's spirit, within a oneself, is what causes the "lop-sidedness."
I can't wait until Judgement Day. There is no guessing on my part whether or not that "one and done" repentance works or not. (Just doesn't sound like my Father Gods way). He likes interaction in our lives. Knowing we are going to mess up brings us back talking to Him all the time. He gets to watch us grow and hear about it and give us advice and help. And we get to take an accounting of who we are and how we are progressing. I remember when I first started confessing. There was lots of that. Now not so much at all, just more thanking Him for all the things I see and do and experience and I have an awful lot to be grateful for. I do some of my best communicating during my sessions on my knees. I seriously can't wait. I am positive the "info" in the "Bad Book" is miniscule and the "Good Book" is loaded down. I really can't hardly wait. I am not sure why someone would look at my life and think it isn't the most peaceful ever.
To be precise, Jesus never told the Jews to stop keeping the law to be saved. Even the Matthew's version of the Great Commission, he reminded his apostles to remind them to obey everything. We Gentiles weren't even in the picture then.
But after the Jews rejected him again, about a year after he was crucified, the ascended Christ gave Paul a new message to share with the Gentiles, Galatians 1:11-12. The Law of Moses was never given to us Gentiles in the first place.
Isn't it going to be so sweet when everything we write doesn't have to be double checked to make sure a word isn't out of place and a meaning changed that then has to be .........can't wait till we can communicate without the fear of being swooped down on. When we can just freely communicate and make mistakes, like normal human beings.
Or any Christians. No one except the Jews have been raised under the Mosaic Law since Jesus came and abolished the Old Covenant and brought in the new.
Fair enough, now there are only 3 groups in the eyes of God, the Jews, the church, and the unsaved Gentiles. 1 Cor 10:32
in Mark, biblehub has 'in night still much' for the word-for-word-literal
in John it's 'dark it still being'
different words, different constructions. 'early' is the same word, and the sense that it is not yet daylight is the same tho the two used different phrasing.