Are we born into this world with the Spirit of Christ?

[bluto]

That's basically what I'm doing, walking you through, my understanding of the Salvation experience.

Doesn't sound like you have an interest to go.

I'll hang out to see if someone does.

Well that's what I'm asking you, walk me through your salvation experinece, what did you do pisteuo? Secondly, don't assume that I have no interest otherwise I would not be asking you questions. The other thing to consider is what if someone ask you how and when did you get saved or what did you do to get saved, what would you tell them? I also suggest you read 1 Peter 3:15 because I'm trying to get you to "think" and do your own homework of studying the Bible, that's how you learn.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[tourist]

I would like to discuss the Salvation process. And I want to start at the very beginning of everyones life.

I'll do this by asking a series of questions that will establish points of reference during our journey.

1) Are we born into this world with the Spirit of Christ already in us?

Yes or No?

No, we were born with a sin nature. God's nature is love.

 

[Pisteuo]

Well that's what I'm asking you, walk me through your salvation experinece, what did you do pisteuo? Secondly, don't assume that I have no interest otherwise I would not be asking you questions. The other thing to consider is what if someone ask you how and when did you get saved or what did you do to get saved, what would you tell them? I also suggest you read 1 Peter 3:15 because I'm trying to get you to "think" and do your own homework of studying the Bible, that's how you learn.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Always want to learn and know Christ better.

Perhaps if I'm allowed to set the terms of this thread and showing my understandings as we go, you can show me where I'm wrong. I would love nothing better than that.

We aren't born with the Spirit of Christ, therefore (except for the unaccountability of children) Christ is not ours yet?

Do you agree with this beginning state of being?

 

[Pisteuo]

No, we were born with a sin nature. God's nature is love.

Thanks tourist. Do you want to go on this ride with me?

I'm having trouble finding serious people.

 

[jb]

So Jb, are you saying we are born into this world with the Spirit of Christ already in us?

No, I'm just refuting the false statement of MessageOf….

The "spirit of Christ" is give when a person is born again. John 3v5,6, Rom 8v15

 

[bluto]

Always want to learn and know Christ better.

Perhaps if I'm allowed to set the terms of this thread and showing my understandings as we go, you can show me where I'm wrong. I would love nothing better than that.

We aren't born with the Spirit of Christ, therefore (except for the unaccountability of children) Christ is not ours yet?

Do you agree with this beginning state of being?

What I agree with is what King David said at Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Without exception we (as in all humans) are born with a sin nature we inhereted from Adam.

So tell me, how were the Old Testament Saints saved before Jesus Christ incarnated? And btw, I am not trying to show you where you are wrong. I'm simply asking you how you became a Christian, what did you do to become a Christian? You keep thinking I have some sort of alternative motives, I don't.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

No. You are born into this world un-saved as a sinner and your Father is Satan (John 8:44).

Your taking John 8:44 out of context message. Jesus is addressing the Pharisees who did not believe a word Jesus had said and we claiming that He had a demon. This is a far cry from a normal person not yet saved but is seeking answers about how salvation is aquired as in what to do.

Jesus said at John 8:38 and 41 that Abraham or God was not their father because they desired to murder Jesus which was their real motive and of course Satan was a murderer from the beginning. And sinced the devil is the originator of murder and lies the Jews themselves were guilty of these two sins. If your going to quote a verse or two read the context first instead of applying it to a situation that the poster of the thread obviously did not have in mind.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[MattforJesus]

I would like to discuss the Salvation process. And I want to start at the very beginning of everyones life.

I'll do this by asking a series of questions that will establish points of reference during our journey.

1) Are we born into this world with the Spirit of Christ already in us?

Yes or No?

Yes we are, and no we are not.

God is an omnipresent Spirit, and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God, and God is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So everybody has the Spirit of Christ in them when they are born, but no one is saved until they accept the truth, and are born again, which the Spirit will then work in their life, and give them attributes of the Spirit the world cannot receive.

Jesus said that born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, for he had the Spirit from the womb to give him power to live a right life, and prepare the way for Jesus, which nobody has had that power from the womb but John the Baptist.

But the Spirit did not save John the entire time he was alive on earth, for he did not receive the Spirit to give him power to be saved, for Jesus said that born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, but he that is the least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.

When John died, and Jesus shed His blood, then John received salvation.

We are born in to this world with the Spirit of Christ in us for God is in everybody for He is an omnipresent Spirit, but we do not have the Spirit to manifest attributes to us such as peace, love, joy, comfort, understanding the perfect ways of God, holiness, until we are born again, and are saved.

John the Baptist was the only person to have more of the Spirit from the womb to prepare the way for Jesus, but he did not receive the Spirit to save him at that time, and he did not receive the attributes given to a person that is saved.

 

[Pisteuo]

Yes we are, and no we are not.

God is an omnipresent Spirit, and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God, and God is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So everybody has the Spirit of Christ in them when they are born, but no one is saved until they accept the truth, and are born again, which the Spirit will then work in their life, and give them attributes of the Spirit the world cannot receive.

Jesus said that born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, for he had the Spirit from the womb to give him power to live a right life, and prepare the way for Jesus, which nobody has had that power from the womb but John the Baptist.

But the Spirit did not save John the entire time he was alive on earth, for he did not receive the Spirit to give him power to be saved, for Jesus said that born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, but he that is the least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.

When John died, and Jesus shed His blood, then John received salvation.

We are born in to this world with the Spirit of Christ in us for God is in everybody for He is an omnipresent Spirit, but we do not have the Spirit to manifest attributes to us such as peace, love, joy, comfort, understanding the perfect ways of God, holiness, until we are born again, and are saved.

John the Baptist was the only person to have more of the Spirit from the womb to prepare the way for Jesus, but he did not receive the Spirit to save him at that time, and he did not receive the attributes given to a person that is saved.

Thanks for the reply Matt, I was thinking I was starting off with an easy question to get the ball rolling,lol!

The Spirit of Christ in my understanding is an accual substance, a piece of God Himself, what the Greek calls the Grace deposit. It's given to us by Grace through Faith. I don't accept that everyone is born with the Grace deposit.

But I do like your hinting towards God's paradoxical truths, they don't apply there yet.

 

[tourist]

Thanks tourist. Do you want to go on this ride with me?

I'm having trouble finding serious people.

Most of the regular frequent contributors are serious people.

 

[Pisteuo]

What I agree with is what King David said at Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Without exception we (as in all humans) are born with a sin nature we inhereted from Adam.

So tell me, how were the Old Testament Saints saved before Jesus Christ incarnated? And btw, I am not trying to show you where you are wrong. I'm simply asking you how you became a Christian, what did you do to become a Christian? You keep thinking I have some sort of alternative motives, I don't.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I "accidentally" became a Christian the only way possible, by Grace through Faith. 33 years ago. My best teacher was having the actual experience, but crossed paths with a gifted Bible teacher at the same time. He was a Dr. Of theology from Stanford and taught like they do in a college setting. He owned the largest collection of Biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican, and that what he taught from. I've been learning from his teachings on a daily basis for 33 years, as well as the things God shows in our personal relationship.

Any chance of you answering my question now?

 

[Pisteuo]

Most of the regular frequent contributors are serious people.

We'll send them my way!

 

[MattforJesus]

Agreed ! As Rom.8:9 states, if we are not in Him and His Spirit is not in us, we are none of His.

In that beginning state of being, because we don't have the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet either? Correct?

They are not ours until we accept the truth, have faith, and confess Christ, and repent, and allow the Spirit to lead us, and some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, having an improper understanding of what is repentance, but they will not let go of the flesh, although they confessed Christ.

But many are called but few are chosen.

And the truth is we are not born sinners for we have not done anything wrong yet, nor does the sin of Adam and Eve come upon us, for that is their sin, and everybody is responsible for their own sin.

Adam and Eve were born with an innocent nature, and knowing God, having not the knowledge of evil, but only good.

It would of never entered Adam and Eve's mind to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil unless an outside source tempted them.

So God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, and he said did God really say that for his first temptation, and Eve told him that they could not eat of the tree for that is all she knew and could think.

Then Satan tempted her with an alternate reality that God did not present to them that they would have an exalted position to be like gods, and Eve was tempted by the 3 things as told in 1 John, the lust of the flesh, for she saw the tree was good to make one wise, and the lust of the eyes, for she saw the fruit was pleasant to eat, and the pride of life, for she would have a higher position to exalt herself.

And Eve sinned, then she was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him it was alright to eat of the tree, for she did not die, and nothing happened to her, and Adam sinned.

Then they had a choice between good and evil instead of only being able to see good, so all their offspring is born with a choice which Eve is the mother of all living.

So since we are born with the choice between good and evil, we are born not knowing God, so we will do wrong before we do right, and repent, and turn to God in the truth.

Which all have sinned, done the act, not born with it, and come short of the glory of God.

So babies are born innocent with no sin on their record, and no sin attached to them to condemn them, which is why the Bible says that the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones, as they are protected spiritually until the time when they are accountable for their sins they commit at that time.

 

[Pisteuo]

They are not ours until we accept the truth, have faith, and confess Christ, and repent, and allow the Spirit to lead us, and some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, having an improper understanding of what is repentance, but they will not let go of the flesh, although they confessed Christ.

But many are called but few are chosen.

And the truth is we are not born sinners for we have not done anything wrong yet, nor does the sin of Adam and Eve come upon us, for that is their sin, and everybody is responsible for their own sin.

Adam and Eve were born with an innocent nature, and knowing God, having not the knowledge of evil, but only good.

It would of never entered Adam and Eve's mind to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil unless an outside source tempted them.

So God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, and he said did God really say that for his first temptation, and Eve told him that they could not eat of the tree for that is all she knew and could think.

Then Satan tempted her with an alternate reality that God did not present to them that they would have an exalted position to be like gods, and Eve was tempted by the 3 things as told in 1 John, the lust of the flesh, for she saw the tree was good to make one wise, and the lust of the eyes, for she saw the fruit was pleasant to eat, and the pride of life, for she would have a higher position to exalt herself.

And Eve sinned, then she was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him it was alright to eat of the tree, for she did not die, and nothing happened to her, and Adam sinned.

Then they had a choice between good and evil instead of only being able to see good, so all their offspring is born with a choice which Eve is the mother of all living.

So since we are born with the choice between good and evil, we are born not knowing God, so we will do wrong before we do right, and repent, and turn to God in the truth.

Which all have sinned, done the act, not born with it, and come short of the glory of God.

So babies are born innocent with no sin on their record, and no sin attached to them to condemn them, which is why the Bible says that the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones, as they are protected spiritually until the time when they are accountable for their sins they commit at that time.

Ok Matt I'll rephrase the question.

Do we have the Spirit of Christ, the Grace deposit, given to us when we reach the age of accountability?

Yes or no, then I can go to the next question.

 

[bluto]

I "accidentally" became a Christian the only way possible, by Grace through Faith. 33 years ago. My best teacher was having the actual experience, but crossed paths with a gifted Bible teacher at the same time. He was a Dr. Of theology from Stanford and taught like they do in a college setting. He owned the largest collection of Biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican, and that what he taught from. I've been learning from his teachings on a daily basis for 33 years, as well as the things God shows in our personal relationship.

Any chance of you answering my question now?

I'm lol because you said you became a Christian "accidentally?" With God there are no "accidents." God chooses us, we do not choose Him. And your right, we are saved through grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). The Old Testament saints were saved by grace and faith as well. What was your teachers name?

Now, to answer your question I don't believe Romans 8:9 is the best verse to start with because the Apostle Paul is explaining to the Romans who are already Christians that the flesh is at war with the spirit and deliverance only comes through Christ by yielding to the Holy Spirit. Or to put it another way the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." As well Paul is also taking about "legalism" in the law as opposed to freedom from the law in Christ. I've just given you a "thumb" nail sketch of the chapter and is a little advanced for you to use it as an opening question regarding you picking vs9 to support your argument. Try and think in simple and specific terms. This is why some here gave you John 3:16 etc. and how to be born again.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Pisteuo]

I'm lol because you said you became a Christian "accidentally?" With God there are no "accidents." God chooses us, we do not choose Him. And your right, we are saved through grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). The Old Testament saints were saved by grace and faith as well. What was your teachers name?

Now, to answer your question I don't believe Romans 8:9 is the best verse to start with because the Apostle Paul is explaining to the Romans who are already Christians that the flesh is at war with the spirit and deliverance only comes through Christ by yielding to the Holy Spirit. Or to put it another way the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." As well Paul is also taking about "legalism" in the law as opposed to freedom from the law in Christ. I've just given you a "thumb" nail sketch of the chapter and is a little advanced for you to use it as an opening question regarding you picking vs9 to support your argument. Try and think in simple and specific terms. This is why some here gave you John 3:16 etc. and how to be born again.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What if we took Rom. 8:9 off the table.

Do we have the Spirit of Christ the moment we reach the age of accountability?

Trying to make everyone happy here.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Your taking John 8:44 out of context message. Jesus is addressing the Pharisees who did not believe a word Jesus had said and we claiming that He had a demon. This is a far cry from a normal person not yet saved but is seeking answers about how salvation is aquired as in what to do.

Jesus said at John 8:38 and 41 that Abraham or God was not their father because they desired to murder Jesus which was their real motive and of course Satan was a murderer from the beginning. And sinced the devil is the originator of murder and lies the Jews themselves were guilty of these two sins. If your going to quote a verse or two read the context first instead of applying it to a situation that the poster of the thread obviously did not have in mind.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You heard physically but did not hear spiritually because it was given in truth and righteousness; the same as the Pharisees!

 

[MattforJesus]

Thanks for the reply Matt, I was thinking I was starting off with an easy question to get the ball rolling,lol!

The Spirit of Christ in my understanding is an accual substance, a piece of God Himself, what the Greek calls the Grace deposit. It's given to us by Grace through Faith. I don't accept that everyone is born with the Grace deposit.

But I do like your hinting towards God's paradoxical truths, they don't apply there yet.

No one has the Spirit of Christ at birth, for no one is saved until they accept the truth, so no one has grace until they have faith which would come later on in life after they are born.

But I was pointing out that the Spirit of God is in everybody for He is an omnipresent Spirit, but we are not saved at birth until later on in life when we accept the truth, then the Spirit manifests grace, and salvation to us by faith.

But as far as we have a piece of the Spirit, it is true, for we can only have so much of the Spirit in us, but it is not true, for the Spirit cannot be separated for us to go around with a piece of the Spirit that is our own, and moves around with us.

For we do not have the Spirit that moves around with us as our own personal Spirit, for the Spirit cannot be separated, and the Spirit does not have to move for the Spirit is already there.

But we walk through the Spirit, and wherever we are at the Spirit is there.

God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus, and the Spirit in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God, for He cannot be separated.

Jesus does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him, for there cannot be a double portion of the Spirit in one place, and an empty space where the Spirit is not at, but the man Christ Jesus walks through the Spirit, and wherever He is at the Spirit is there.

The same as the saints that they do not have their own personal Spirit that moves around with them, but they move through the Spirit, but they can only have so much of the Spirit in them so they only have a piece of the Spirit.

It makes it easy to understand how God can be an omnipresent Spirit, but Jesus is God manifest in flesh, for He gave the man Christ Jesus the fulness of His attributes, for Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and has the Spirit without measure, and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell, and the man Christ the personal human body of God, and does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him separate from the Spirit, but the man Christ Jesus moves through the Spirit, for the Spirit will always remain connected, and can never separate.

And if God is an omnipresent Spirit then of course the Spirit can never separate.

 

[Pisteuo]

No one has the Spirit of Christ at birth, for no one is saved until they accept the truth, so no one has grace until they have faith which would come later on in life after they are born.

But I was pointing out that the Spirit of God is in everybody for He is an omnipresent Spirit, but we are not saved at birth until later on in life when we accept the truth, then the Spirit manifests grace, and salvation to us by faith.

But as far as we have a piece of the Spirit, it is true, for we can only have so much of the Spirit in us, but it is not true, for the Spirit cannot be separated for us to go around with a piece of the Spirit that is our own, and moves around with us.

For we do not have the Spirit that moves around with us as our own personal Spirit, for the Spirit cannot be separated, and the Spirit does not have to move for the Spirit is already there.

But we walk through the Spirit, and wherever we are at the Spirit is there.

God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus, and the Spirit in Christ is connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God, for He cannot be separated.

Jesus does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him, for there cannot be a double portion of the Spirit in one place, and an empty space where the Spirit is not at, but the man Christ Jesus walks through the Spirit, and wherever He is at the Spirit is there.

The same as the saints that they do not have their own personal Spirit that moves around with them, but they move through the Spirit, but they can only have so much of the Spirit in them so they only have a piece of the Spirit.

It makes it easy to understand how God can be an omnipresent Spirit, but Jesus is God manifest in flesh, for He gave the man Christ Jesus the fulness of His attributes, for Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and has the Spirit without measure, and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell, and the man Christ the personal human body of God, and does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him separate from the Spirit, but the man Christ Jesus moves through the Spirit, for the Spirit will always remain connected, and can never separate.

And if God is an omnipresent Spirit then of course the Spirit can never separate.

We may be able to move forward with your understanding, hey none of us will agree on everything.

But I'm headed to a bigger point. Let me ask you another question.

"Is Christ ours", at the moment of accountability? Before the Father calls us out, before repentance, before our first act of Faith towards God?

 

[bluto]

What if we took Rom. 8:9 off the table.

Do we have the Spirit of Christ the moment we reach the age of accountability?

Trying to make everyone happy here.

Well let me ask you, do you know what the "age of accountability is?" The age of accountability has to do with those who die before reaching an of those who die never having the ability to make a decision for or against Jesus Christ.

Some say due to the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at age 13. But a child can sometimes make a decision at any age. Charles Spurgen said, "a child of five can at truly be saved and regenerated as an adult." The bottom line is that the atoning sacrifice for sins are for the sins of the whole world, it is not dependent on an age of accountability. God knows when anyone becomes accountable because God knows the heart. The only time you get the Holy Spirit is when you confess Jesus Christ as your Savior. Remember John 3:16. Does this make sense to you?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto