Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Chester]

You and I obviously disagree on context - I am OK with that . . . God bless you, brother!

I have a question for preston39, nat2019, Guojing, FollowHisSteps, and maybe chester, and whoever else I forgot to list ...

You seem strongly attached to your doctrine, my question is, were you ever tempted to stray from your own doctrine even once, if so, what caused you to question your own doctrine and did you consider it as a possible weakness to the doctrine you believe?

I grew up taught that works have nothing to do with getting us saved, but a lot to do with keeping us saved. I have found by looking at the Bible this is not true at all. We are saved by grace through faith and stay saved by grace through faith. I came here three years as part of my life of searching (having been confronted and exposes to OSAS in ways I had not been before). I have listened and carefully Biblically evaluated the OSAS and have found no Biblical basis for the doctrine. My security in Christ rests on the fact that I am believing in Him, not on the idea that I made a decision (new birth) over thirty years ago. I consider myself neither a Calvinist or an Armininianist!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I have a question for preston39, nat2019, Guojing, FollowHisSteps, and maybe chester, and whoever else I forgot to list ...

You seem strongly attached to your doctrine, my question is, were you ever tempted to stray from your own doctrine even once, if so, what caused you to question your own doctrine and did you consider it as a possible weakness to the doctrine you believe?

You may not be aware, but doctrine or theology are ideas not life experience.
Life experience layers how we view doctrine, into what is important and what is not.

So how you are baptised, full immersion, a cross on the head is of less importance to faith itself.
Having spiritual experiences and learning what works and why changes you.

So my theology is my life. So what you say about straying, has no meaning, because it is riven into
who I am. It is like going up to Paul the apostle and asking him did he ever think Jesus was not God,
after Jesus appeared to him. In theory it is an idea, but what happened happened, so it becomes undeniable.

Or take Peter the Apostle. He knew Jesus face to face, and denied Him, yet Peter was reconciled and walked
in grace, not perfectly, but in the relationship he had begun, full of the Holy Spirit.

And as to understanding our position. The light is a light and it shines clearly on everything.
Grace that discounts sin, and treats the behaviour of people as irrelevant is delusion, sold in functional societies
where reasonable relationships, integrity and justice work. Once you go outside this world, you know how
deadly sin truly is when it is allowed to run amok. But that has always been the problem with the tension
between acceptance and repentance.

 

[oyster67]

whatever your doctrine may be, do you believe that salvation can be lost or forfeited?

The Bible plainly states in Hebrews 10 and John 15 that salvation can be forfeited. Many prodigal sons will never return. In the last days there shall be many who will turn away and leave their first love. Many of us believed OSAS until we started studying the Bible rather than just listening to ear tickling preachers.

 

[oyster67]

In ancient times they did not separate heart and head they way we do, they just called it the heart and it was the seat of man so to speak, it included the mental processes, emotions and will.

So this is why we often state the "heart of man" because it included everything.

Where did you get this idea?

 

[UnderGrace]

Adam was in the garden

If we use Osas formula once save always save

Once in the Garden always in the Garden.

It mean God Will do what ever He can to make Adam not Eat the forbiden fruit to keep him in the garden

The fact is God give a free Will to Adam and he lose his right to stay in the Garden.

To me It is paralel with salvation.

Salvation is by grace

Adam in the Garden is by grace, Adam not make Garden, God is

So Being in the Garden is a grace, is that mean he can not lose his grace?

You can keep your grace as long as not Eat the forbiden fruit.

We are not in the Garden, and that is why the assurance of salvation is true, because we have a NEW ADAM

 

[UnderGrace]

Where did you get this idea?

Literature

 

[Nat2019]

Here are a few scriptures regarding effort- since I am always being accused of trying to earn my salvation through self effort.

These scriptures arent about salvation, but what we must to do after we are born again-

*But says -without holiness no one will see the Lord.
- So if we dont have holiness we won't see the Lord.

Warning and Encouragement
14 (Make every effort) to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

*What was must do in accordance with Faith.

2 Peter 1:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 For this very reason, (make every effort) to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
*Making every effort to enter the narrow door.

Luke 13:24-30 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

If you have a test and you put "effort" in to study? Is that "your" effort? Or is it
Gods effort. You can pray God helps you, but who does all the studying, reading and writing?.

Nice embellishment of what I said.....I said ALMOST EVERY not EVERY.....do you have an honest bone in your body?

I actually edited that message to "Almost every" but for some reason it didnt change it. And Almost Every message isnt actually a fact that your stating.

 

[Nat2019]

It is possible to be locked into a mindset. This mindset reinterprets everything we write into particular
motivations, of truth and lies. So the expression written relates to friend or foe and details are not important.

Truth seekers, see people for who they are, and then desires to share to their hearts.
Soldiers defend their position and destroy the enemy whenever possible.

No where have I written nasty statements towards God about his grace. Nor would I write them about him..

 

[Nat2019]

By evaluate the story of Adam, we have an idea about God mindset.

I am going to repeat the similarity of the story of Adam Being lose his Garden residency and losing salvation

1. Being in the Garden is a grace, Adam not work to make a Garden, It is by grace

1. Salvation is by grace not by work.

2. There is a requirement to keep his residency ( not Eat forbiden fruit)

2. There is requairement to be save (accepting Jesus or believe in Him)

3. When Adam breaking the rule, he lose his residency

3. I believe When we breaking the rule (not believe in Jesus anymore) we lose our salvation

I agree with you. Yes Adam wasnt made eternally secure. God never controlled Adam, he gave him "free will" to choose to eat the fruit". Otherwise Adam was Gods puppet, who he could control.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Sorry that is incorrect and you are wrong.....there is NO LOVE void of theological truth...and do me a favor...never again place a heart on something you disagree with....I need no appeasement at the sake of the truth

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Apart from the theological fallacy, your being a jerk. She put a heart to convey that even in disagreement she is still showing love. NOT appeasement.
As for the theological fallacy
the truth can be delivered in a hate filled way. It is demonstrated in life and yes even in this forum continually, that the truth is used as a bludgeoning device.
There is even a scripture that says that when we find an brother in error go to them in a spirit of gentleness, and the warning is that if we don't we may find ourselves in sin. That sin is lack of love. Lack of love while speaking the truth.
Also there are pagans who demonstrate love, as it is described in the book of Corinthians, even though they don't have the truth.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree with you. Yes Adam wasnt made eternally secure. God never controlled Adam, he gave him "free will" to choose to eat the fruit". Otherwise Adam was Gods puppet, who he could control.

And we have a New Adam, He was perfect and His perfection is credited/imputed to us for those who believe in Him for it.

He did not fail and that is why we are eternally secure.

 

[Nat2019]

Where in this passage does it say a Christian who continues willfully sinning will receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Where does it say here if a Christian willfully sins he will receive punishment-

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

Where in this passage does it say a Christian who continues willfully sinning will receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Where does it say here if a Christian willfully sins he will receive punishment-

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Your question it is based on a wrong premis therefore it cannot be answered.

 

[Nat2019]

And we have a New Adam, He was perfect and His perfection is credited/imputed to us for those who believe in Him for it.

He did not fail and that is why we are eternally secure.

Sorry I haven't found the work "imputed" anywhere in the bible. If God was totally controlling us then we would never sin again.

 

[notuptome]

The Bible plainly states in Hebrews 10 and John 15 that salvation can be forfeited. Many prodigal sons will never return. In the last days there shall be many who will turn away and leave their first love. Many of us believed OSAS until we started studying the Bible rather than just listening to ear tickling preachers.

That is not what Hebrews 10 and John 15 teach. The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we belong to Jesus. We do not have control over whether we are saved or not so we do not have control over whether we remain saved or not.

If you receive the genuine article from Christ you know it cannot be taken away nor forfeited. The butterfly cannot return to the caterpillar state of his life and you cannot be born again in Christ and just forfeit that new life to the devil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nat2019]

Your question it is based on a wrong premis therefore it cannot be answered.

The question can still be answered by you

 

[UnderGrace]

No where have I written nasty statements towards God about his grace. Nor would I write them about him..

"Alot of you people are exacly like this women from OSAS. You look down on others with disgust and I read your comments"

I would say that this statement encapsulates what you have basically arguing all along, that those that are secure in Jesus use this security to sin>>>> you slander us and state we use grace as a license to sin

 

[Nat2019]

That is not what Hebrews 10 and John 15 teach. The Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we belong to Jesus. We do not have control over whether we are saved or not so we do not have control over whether we remain saved or not.

If you receive the genuine article from Christ you know it cannot be taken away nor forfeited. The butterfly cannot return to the caterpillar state of his life and you cannot be born again in Christ and just forfeit that new life to the devil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So your saying a person cant ever be tempted again by the devil. Watch and pray you resist temptation, the spirit is willing the flesh is weak.

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry I haven't found the work "imputed" anywhere in the bible. If God was totally controlling us then we would never sin again.

Imputed does not mean control... it means to attribute

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Nat2019]

"Alot of you people are exacly like this women from OSAS. You look down on others with disgust and I read your comments"

I would say that this statement encapsulates what you have basically arguing all along, that those that are secure in Jesus use this security to sin>>>> you slander us and state we use grace as a license to sin

"Alot of you people are exacly like this women from OSAS. You look down on others with disgust and I read your comments"

I would say that this statement encapsulates what you have basically arguing all along, that those that are secure in Jesus use this security to sin>>>> you slander us and state we use grace as a license to sin

Imputed does not mean control... it means to attribute

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

His faith is counted for righteousness. Its talking about FAITH. Our FAITH being counted as righteousness.