Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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this 'thread' is totally 'bogus' -
the 'grandpa' we encountered when we first came here is 'definitely not the 'same'...
we're worried about quite a few whom we have come to Love in this house - 'are they duped-playing along, spelled, egotists, etc.???
'Great Peace have they that Love Thy Law, and nothing shall 'offend' them'.
the 'grandpa' we encountered when we first came here is 'definitely not the 'same'...
we're worried about quite a few whom we have come to Love in this house - 'are they duped-playing along, spelled, egotists, etc.???
'Great Peace have they that Love Thy Law, and nothing shall 'offend' them'.
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That would be a unique creature indeed!
Seems like everyone is talking past everyone else when all are in fact in general agreement.
Since salvation -- eternal life -- is God's GIFT to the one who truly repents and believes on Christ, salvation cannot be "lost". Neither can a child of God be "unborn".
By the same token the ones who are truly saved have been born again, and made new creatures in Christ. Therefore old things have passed away, and all things have become new. And that is why Christian baptism is so critical. It is a watershed experience to show the new convert that he is buried in the likeness of Christ's death, and raised again to walk in newness of life (by the power of the Spirit). Which means that those who are genuine children of God have turned their backs on sins and idols and turned wholeheartedly to God and Christ by faith.
For some, conversion is immediate and total (e.g. the apostle Paul). For others there may remain besetting sins. But simply because a Christian sins does not mean he loses his salvation. That is what Satan would have people to believe, but it is a lie of the devil.
Those who hold on to an evil or sinful lifestyle were never saved to begin with. So they need to repent and be converted.
Seems like everyone is talking past everyone else when all are in fact in general agreement.
Since salvation -- eternal life -- is God's GIFT to the one who truly repents and believes on Christ, salvation cannot be "lost". Neither can a child of God be "unborn".
By the same token the ones who are truly saved have been born again, and made new creatures in Christ. Therefore old things have passed away, and all things have become new. And that is why Christian baptism is so critical. It is a watershed experience to show the new convert that he is buried in the likeness of Christ's death, and raised again to walk in newness of life (by the power of the Spirit). Which means that those who are genuine children of God have turned their backs on sins and idols and turned wholeheartedly to God and Christ by faith.
For some, conversion is immediate and total (e.g. the apostle Paul). For others there may remain besetting sins. But simply because a Christian sins does not mean he loses his salvation. That is what Satan would have people to believe, but it is a lie of the devil.
Those who hold on to an evil or sinful lifestyle were never saved to begin with. So they need to repent and be converted.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this point. There is nothing better than being with Jesus.
This is what Gods people know and experience. And they listen to Him through thick and thin.
This is my language, which I express as I know I could walk away, which in salvation terms means
deny my salvation, but I do not.
Why is this such so controversial?
Some go so far as to say by expressing this reality, I do not know Jesus or have salvation.
It suggests to me these individuals are not secure in Jesus's love and need to defend their acceptance
with guarantees and extra security while excusing rebellion and sin.
This is what Gods people know and experience. And they listen to Him through thick and thin.
This is my language, which I express as I know I could walk away, which in salvation terms means
deny my salvation, but I do not.
Why is this such so controversial?
Some go so far as to say by expressing this reality, I do not know Jesus or have salvation.
It suggests to me these individuals are not secure in Jesus's love and need to defend their acceptance
with guarantees and extra security while excusing rebellion and sin.
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Who has to suffer for faith, Sir? The Jews that profess righteousness and godliness by faith in Jesus Christ,
that are free from the yoke of bondage, and come in under the yoke and burden of Jesus Christ.
They are the ones that are being persecuted, often in their own families, and they suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and their professed belief in the work He has done, where they are in under the New testament.
We as gentile believers, do not suffer under the same circumstances, because those righteous
by faith are approved of both God and man. We are righteous by faith, and do not have to break free from communities
and situations where so many claim righteousness by observation of law.
Those that have faith amongst people that observe law, will be persecuted because of their liberty in Jesus Christ.
Who persecuted Jesus?
Not unbelievers.
Not those that believed Him.
The Pharisees.
that are free from the yoke of bondage, and come in under the yoke and burden of Jesus Christ.
They are the ones that are being persecuted, often in their own families, and they suffer for the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and their professed belief in the work He has done, where they are in under the New testament.
We as gentile believers, do not suffer under the same circumstances, because those righteous
by faith are approved of both God and man. We are righteous by faith, and do not have to break free from communities
and situations where so many claim righteousness by observation of law.
Those that have faith amongst people that observe law, will be persecuted because of their liberty in Jesus Christ.
Who persecuted Jesus?
Not unbelievers.
Not those that believed Him.
The Pharisees.
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God bless you.
You know what you have when you realise it is precious and can be lost.
A humble believer will always be careful when God declares this
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
Ezek 18
God declares we can walk with Him, gain His blessing and be a part of His Kingdom or walk
against Him and be condemned.
Groups who preach the ticket view of heaven will always leave hearts unresolved, sinners thinking
they know Jesus and a meaningless religious way of life.
The problem has always been we are defined by the path we walk. Jesus invites us to walk with Him
and learn and listen to Him and become His people. One cannot separate the path from Jesus or
repentance and faith from works, or works from repentance and faith.
What testifies against anyone who claims to know Jesus yet is angered about walking in His ways, is this
very anger, because it comes from a heart that does not love the way of Jesus.
The problem with deception is the deceived are happy to put Jesus to death.
So we need to be very careful of how we judge, what and who we condemn. Jesus warns our very
salvation is at stake.
22 I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
......anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matt 5
You know what you have when you realise it is precious and can be lost.
A humble believer will always be careful when God declares this
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
Ezek 18
God declares we can walk with Him, gain His blessing and be a part of His Kingdom or walk
against Him and be condemned.
Groups who preach the ticket view of heaven will always leave hearts unresolved, sinners thinking
they know Jesus and a meaningless religious way of life.
The problem has always been we are defined by the path we walk. Jesus invites us to walk with Him
and learn and listen to Him and become His people. One cannot separate the path from Jesus or
repentance and faith from works, or works from repentance and faith.
What testifies against anyone who claims to know Jesus yet is angered about walking in His ways, is this
very anger, because it comes from a heart that does not love the way of Jesus.
The problem with deception is the deceived are happy to put Jesus to death.
So we need to be very careful of how we judge, what and who we condemn. Jesus warns our very
salvation is at stake.
22 I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
......anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matt 5
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Hello FollowHisSteps.
We are under a New testament, and everyone under the old testament tried obtaining righteousness by deeds and observation of law.
The one that are truly born again, after a godly grief and sorrow, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and by the power and full assurance given by the Lord, can rest in full assurance that He is sealed until the day of redemption, as scripture teaches, and that nothing will be able to separate him or her from the love of God. Nothing.
People that turn from God under the New testament, will be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and some will surely die - if they walk off in wilfull sin, but it is written that their spirit will be saved, but as through fire, in the day of Christ.
A believer in faith, does not continue in wilfull sin, and fulfill the law by faith.
Love is the fulfillment of the law, and God is love.
When a believer walks by faith, one is full of the Spirit of God - and therefore also able to walk in the fulfillment of the commandments of God - to love God, which is to believe on Him, and to love ourself and our neighbours.
Galatians 5:14The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Do not think for a second that God abandons the children He adopts, it is evident that you stumble in your teaching.
He is the one that came to us, and our faith works by the love He has for us.
He is the one that came to serve us, and all we can do is to cry out for His mercy.
He is the one that exalted the guests eating at His table.
Faith works by love, and this love is the love that God has for us.
He came to save us, and righteousness and true liberty is found in Jesus Christ and the message of His cross.
Nothing else.
You are walking on very dangerous paths if you claim faith, and preach a trust in law, and trust in anything else than the rock.
That means you are climbing the fence. Remember that Jesus says; "I never knew you" to some, at that day. I know God, and I am known of Him. Nothing will be able to take the seal of the Spirit of God away. It is the seal of Spirit, and not of flesh.
I am His, for all of eternity.
Galatians 4:9 -
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
The cross is the reason for persecution.
The power, and wisdom of God.
Where righteousness is found, by faith in what Jesus Christ has fulfilled, and done.
We are under a New testament, and everyone under the old testament tried obtaining righteousness by deeds and observation of law.
The one that are truly born again, after a godly grief and sorrow, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and by the power and full assurance given by the Lord, can rest in full assurance that He is sealed until the day of redemption, as scripture teaches, and that nothing will be able to separate him or her from the love of God. Nothing.
People that turn from God under the New testament, will be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and some will surely die - if they walk off in wilfull sin, but it is written that their spirit will be saved, but as through fire, in the day of Christ.
A believer in faith, does not continue in wilfull sin, and fulfill the law by faith.
Love is the fulfillment of the law, and God is love.
When a believer walks by faith, one is full of the Spirit of God - and therefore also able to walk in the fulfillment of the commandments of God - to love God, which is to believe on Him, and to love ourself and our neighbours.
Galatians 5:14The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree:“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Do not think for a second that God abandons the children He adopts, it is evident that you stumble in your teaching.
He is the one that came to us, and our faith works by the love He has for us.
He is the one that came to serve us, and all we can do is to cry out for His mercy.
He is the one that exalted the guests eating at His table.
Faith works by love, and this love is the love that God has for us.
He came to save us, and righteousness and true liberty is found in Jesus Christ and the message of His cross.
Nothing else.
You are walking on very dangerous paths if you claim faith, and preach a trust in law, and trust in anything else than the rock.
That means you are climbing the fence. Remember that Jesus says; "I never knew you" to some, at that day. I know God, and I am known of Him. Nothing will be able to take the seal of the Spirit of God away. It is the seal of Spirit, and not of flesh.
I am His, for all of eternity.
Galatians 4:9 -
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
The cross is the reason for persecution.
The power, and wisdom of God.
Where righteousness is found, by faith in what Jesus Christ has fulfilled, and done.
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No one was "sealed" with the Holy Spirit BEFORE Christ's death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit came "upon" men, but sometimes departed, and sometimes came back.
The Spirit departed Samson, yet God heard his final prayer and came back to him and gave him his supernatural strength one last time.
The Holy Spirit departed, King Saul, yet at least for a time came back to him.
1 Samuel 19:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 So he went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then the SPIRIT OF GOD WAS UPON him also, and he went on and prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he also stripped off his clothes and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”
This was well after the Spirit had departed from him.
David's prayer you reference was dealing with God not taking His Spirit in the way He did with Saul or Samson due to his sin in the Bathsheba affair, NOT THAT HE WOULD LOSE SALVATION!
Those that died prior to Christ's death and resurrection were held in either of the 2 compartments of Hades/Sheol until Jesus came and freed those in Abraham's bosom side of Hades/Sheol.
Jesus Himself tells us the Holy Spirit wouldn't come to fill and seal someone UNTIL He died and was resurrected. Obviously the Holy Spirit acted UPON people since the fall.
John 16:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 But the [a]Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to yo
So David's prayer is not one that a true born again child of God can pray because it would mean a revocation of the gifts He gave us, and nullify that we are His children.
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That is nothing but an attempt at spin.
Eternal salvation is not received until G-d says it is granted. While we are here on earth we are...born again. We can loose that status and scripture is clear. The poster properly interpreted scripture.
On;y new age religion believers since the 1960's present this argument. Why not before 1960 ...did someone just become smarter in the 60's? Really!
Eternal salvation is not received until G-d says it is granted. While we are here on earth we are...born again. We can loose that status and scripture is clear. The poster properly interpreted scripture.
On;y new age religion believers since the 1960's present this argument. Why not before 1960 ...did someone just become smarter in the 60's? Really!
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I just go by what the word says
Jesus said when we believe WE HAVE (perfect tense) ETERNAL LIFE, He also said we will never hunger or thirst, Live forever, ever die. And be risen on the last day. So unless Jesus lied. We are not trying to wait for this to be assured, it is already assured.
John said we may KNOW WE HAVE eternal life. And it is the basis of FACT that gives us power to continue to believe in his name
If we have it, then it is eternal or else god lied.
So sorry my friend, you are the one twisting.
Jesus said when we believe WE HAVE (perfect tense) ETERNAL LIFE, He also said we will never hunger or thirst, Live forever, ever die. And be risen on the last day. So unless Jesus lied. We are not trying to wait for this to be assured, it is already assured.
John said we may KNOW WE HAVE eternal life. And it is the basis of FACT that gives us power to continue to believe in his name
If we have it, then it is eternal or else god lied.
So sorry my friend, you are the one twisting.
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Those things are quaranteed once eternal salvation is received, which is after G-d judges and grants our salvation. Until then and while we are on this earth...we are born again..
Why do you quote partial scripture only to make it appear as you wish?
If you are going to use scripture to support your position...then state chapter and verse...ok?..... stop miss leading people with portions of what it actually says.
You constantly take G-d's meaning out of context. Leave it where He put for...for a reason.
Be aware;...
Rev.22;18,.......For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matthew 5:17-19.... 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Galations 1; 6-9 .... I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Why do you quote partial scripture only to make it appear as you wish?
If you are going to use scripture to support your position...then state chapter and verse...ok?..... stop miss leading people with portions of what it actually says.
You constantly take G-d's meaning out of context. Leave it where He put for...for a reason.
Be aware;...
Rev.22;18,.......For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matthew 5:17-19.... 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Galations 1; 6-9 .... I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
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Salvation was received the moment I trusted in christ.
Eph 1:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
This is just one passage, Paul says we HAVE all the things I have highighted, I am not waiting for them, I HAVE THEM And there are many more just like this
But hey, if you want to wait on the false hope that maybe you might get it based on whatever you do. Thats on you.
Me and myself, I will trust in God.
Eph 1:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
This is just one passage, Paul says we HAVE all the things I have highighted, I am not waiting for them, I HAVE THEM And there are many more just like this
But hey, if you want to wait on the false hope that maybe you might get it based on whatever you do. Thats on you.
Me and myself, I will trust in God.
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