Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Some think just saying this means you are lost.
It is ironic, that some claim you can have salvation and never lose it, and gaining salvation is this simple
belief in Jesus, yet if you have all this and say it could be lost, you were never saved.
I think there are two problems here.
1. Who is the elect?
2. Who are the weeds planted by the enemy?
The elect are known from the beginning of time, and God has called them.
The weeds are an attempt by the enemy to disrupt Gods plans.
Now my brothers and sisters in Christ. Only the enemy thinks the weeds are significant.
We are simply called to learn from Jesus, to follow and to shine.
The elect can never lose their salvation, but only when we meet the Lord will they become clear.
And the ironic thing is some of the "weeds" come to faith and are part of the elect, while those
who appear to be the elect are weeds.
So if you want something true, those who put weeds above following Jesus, are false teachers.
And thats all that really needs to be said, because the Holy Spirit does not live within them, even
His word will be rejected, and their hearts will continue to sin and condemn with abandon.
God bless you
It is ironic, that some claim you can have salvation and never lose it, and gaining salvation is this simple
belief in Jesus, yet if you have all this and say it could be lost, you were never saved.
I think there are two problems here.
1. Who is the elect?
2. Who are the weeds planted by the enemy?
The elect are known from the beginning of time, and God has called them.
The weeds are an attempt by the enemy to disrupt Gods plans.
Now my brothers and sisters in Christ. Only the enemy thinks the weeds are significant.
We are simply called to learn from Jesus, to follow and to shine.
The elect can never lose their salvation, but only when we meet the Lord will they become clear.
And the ironic thing is some of the "weeds" come to faith and are part of the elect, while those
who appear to be the elect are weeds.
So if you want something true, those who put weeds above following Jesus, are false teachers.
And thats all that really needs to be said, because the Holy Spirit does not live within them, even
His word will be rejected, and their hearts will continue to sin and condemn with abandon.
God bless you
Some hold that they are saved, when they are in continual wilful rebellion and refuse to repent
of the sin they hold in their hearts. The law of God to them is a curse that condemns them whenever
they read it, yet the believe Christ has saved them, while their hearts shout rebellion and hatred.
The pharisees were equally blind to Jesus, because they did not love the Father.
Jesus himself declared that unless the love of the Father resides in our hearts we cannot love Him.
What does a believer do who needs to believe in God yet hates His precepts and principles?
They will condemn Gods people and rail against them as if they are the enemy preaching judgement
without mercy or love.
Until love reigns in someones heart, everything they speak will be distorted and not speaking from
the Lords heart.
God bless you, for when we see we can walk away from Jesus, we begin to see how we can walk
deeper and know the truth more fully, Amen.
of the sin they hold in their hearts. The law of God to them is a curse that condemns them whenever
they read it, yet the believe Christ has saved them, while their hearts shout rebellion and hatred.
The pharisees were equally blind to Jesus, because they did not love the Father.
Jesus himself declared that unless the love of the Father resides in our hearts we cannot love Him.
What does a believer do who needs to believe in God yet hates His precepts and principles?
They will condemn Gods people and rail against them as if they are the enemy preaching judgement
without mercy or love.
Until love reigns in someones heart, everything they speak will be distorted and not speaking from
the Lords heart.
God bless you, for when we see we can walk away from Jesus, we begin to see how we can walk
deeper and know the truth more fully, Amen.
If our salvation depends on us then we are already lost. Apostates teach that salvation may be obtained like socks at the store and returned when they go out of fashion. This line of thinking is utter foolishness and diminishes the great cost by which the redemption of our souls has been purchased.
To be genuinely saved one must first face that they are utterly lost and doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire. They must first see themselves as wholly unworthy of redemption and justly deserving to be condemned. Only from there can one receive a proper perspective of what Christ has done for us when we did not know Him and had no desire to know Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
To be genuinely saved one must first face that they are utterly lost and doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire. They must first see themselves as wholly unworthy of redemption and justly deserving to be condemned. Only from there can one receive a proper perspective of what Christ has done for us when we did not know Him and had no desire to know Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
-
4
-
2
- Show all
There is quite a bit of works to maintain Salvation in your post. I find it most distressing, and am concerned for you.
So let's run this down. You know all the Scriptures I'm referencing so I won't at this time list them and instead formulate them into reasoning this out.
You are dead in your sin. You are presented with, and hear THE Gospel unto Salvation. Your faith THAT GOD GAVE YOU is activated and you confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart. You are born again from above at that moment, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and become a born again Child of God.
Jesus tells us He will NEVER leave nor forsake you. That He is the founder and perfecter of your faith. That you are in His Hands AND His father's hands, and NO ONE (including you) can pluck you out of Them. He says that NO CREATED THING (YOU are a created thing) can separate you from Him. He says this gift of faith and Salvation is irrevocable. He says that EVEN if YOU stumble and lose faith and deny Him HE can't deny himself, because HE is in you. There is MUCH more but just this is MORE than enough.
Now you come along and say that it is YOU that has to maintain your Salvation by keeping your faith, by forgiving others, by not living a life of sin etc.... You make Him not only a liar, but an impotent failure! That somehow He will revoke the faith He gave you and you will no longer be His Child, and YOU have separated yourself from His Love, that you have bit His Hand forcing Him to let you jump out, that He is NOT going to perfect your faith. That He IS going to leave and forsake you.
Many of the passages you cite you confuse a DESCRIPTION of what a Christian IS, with a PRESCRIPTION of things that a Christian must do or not do to attain or retain Salvation.
Also, many of the passages are there for us to examine ourselves to see if we are indeed a born again Child of God. For instance, if we don't forgive and hold a grudge, if we are caught up in a sin and aren't even bothered by it, if we don't love people, etc... THEN we better examine ourselves to make our election sure, and that we HAVE been born again.
So I would sincerely ask you, WHO are you trusting in to perfect your faith, and keep you saved? You or Christ?
So let's run this down. You know all the Scriptures I'm referencing so I won't at this time list them and instead formulate them into reasoning this out.
You are dead in your sin. You are presented with, and hear THE Gospel unto Salvation. Your faith THAT GOD GAVE YOU is activated and you confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart. You are born again from above at that moment, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and become a born again Child of God.
Jesus tells us He will NEVER leave nor forsake you. That He is the founder and perfecter of your faith. That you are in His Hands AND His father's hands, and NO ONE (including you) can pluck you out of Them. He says that NO CREATED THING (YOU are a created thing) can separate you from Him. He says this gift of faith and Salvation is irrevocable. He says that EVEN if YOU stumble and lose faith and deny Him HE can't deny himself, because HE is in you. There is MUCH more but just this is MORE than enough.
Now you come along and say that it is YOU that has to maintain your Salvation by keeping your faith, by forgiving others, by not living a life of sin etc.... You make Him not only a liar, but an impotent failure! That somehow He will revoke the faith He gave you and you will no longer be His Child, and YOU have separated yourself from His Love, that you have bit His Hand forcing Him to let you jump out, that He is NOT going to perfect your faith. That He IS going to leave and forsake you.
Many of the passages you cite you confuse a DESCRIPTION of what a Christian IS, with a PRESCRIPTION of things that a Christian must do or not do to attain or retain Salvation.
Also, many of the passages are there for us to examine ourselves to see if we are indeed a born again Child of God. For instance, if we don't forgive and hold a grudge, if we are caught up in a sin and aren't even bothered by it, if we don't love people, etc... THEN we better examine ourselves to make our election sure, and that we HAVE been born again.
So I would sincerely ask you, WHO are you trusting in to perfect your faith, and keep you saved? You or Christ?
-
1
- Show all
There is quite a bit of works to maintain Salvation in your post. I find it most distressing, and am concerned for you.
This sentence conveys a concept of illness.
A sentence shows you have been contaminated......it causes distress......you maybe lost
Except that is impossible. If you are saved you are saved no matter which turning your faith takes.
Unless of course, ones language is really speaking the truth. We are the secure guys, and you demons
out there are challenging us, but we will never give in, except that is not what we believe.
It does not matter if we give in, so no fear, we are secure no matter what.
It is like a child in a house alone repeating to themselves the mantra they are safe and nothing can
get them, while actually knowing this is all a lie.
And this is the core problem. The emotional reality is unbelief, disguised as faith.
Jesus has saved us and we are secure in Him against all the world or the heavenlies throws at us.
And our walking in Jesus embeds this reality deeper each day, as we rejoice in love working out
through our lives. Unless of course we doubt we either know Jesus or walk with Him. Then we are
this child speaking a mantra, and not really people of faith at all.
But if you bow the knee and accept Jesus in your heart you are saved, through repentance and faith
in the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Knowing this sets us free to walk with Him, and learn
and obey. But if we refuse to do these things, do we actually have any reality?
This sentence conveys a concept of illness.
A sentence shows you have been contaminated......it causes distress......you maybe lost
Except that is impossible. If you are saved you are saved no matter which turning your faith takes.
Unless of course, ones language is really speaking the truth. We are the secure guys, and you demons
out there are challenging us, but we will never give in, except that is not what we believe.
It does not matter if we give in, so no fear, we are secure no matter what.
It is like a child in a house alone repeating to themselves the mantra they are safe and nothing can
get them, while actually knowing this is all a lie.
And this is the core problem. The emotional reality is unbelief, disguised as faith.
Jesus has saved us and we are secure in Him against all the world or the heavenlies throws at us.
And our walking in Jesus embeds this reality deeper each day, as we rejoice in love working out
through our lives. Unless of course we doubt we either know Jesus or walk with Him. Then we are
this child speaking a mantra, and not really people of faith at all.
But if you bow the knee and accept Jesus in your heart you are saved, through repentance and faith
in the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Knowing this sets us free to walk with Him, and learn
and obey. But if we refuse to do these things, do we actually have any reality?
Its really simple.
Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?
Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?
If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.
If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.
If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.
If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
Do you trust Christ for your Salvation?
Or do you trust in your own performance to earn or maintain Salvation?
If you think you can lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on your own performance.
If you think you can't lose Salvation then you MUST think it depends on the Lord keeping you.
If all this is merely an exercise in intellect and interpretation then you can be persuaded either way.
If you have come to Christ then the Holy Spirit has given you assurance that mere philosophy can't take away.
-
5
- Show all
I think certain denominations from way back have perpetuated this idea that Jesus is pretty powerful, but He cannot or won’t do it all. They say stuff like - “if you don’t do this and this and this,” or have a “list” of do’s & don’ts to “make sure” or to “maintain” the work that Christ on the cross started, but that must be maintained and continually worked at, in order to earn salvation.
The sad part is they can never be sure if their good works outweigh their sins, and so they think that they must recommit, rebaptise, walk the isle, give more, work harder etc. and hope, but not know that their salvation rest upon the “finished work of Jesus. They don’t understand the “rest” spoken of from Genesis to Revelation.
The sad part is they can never be sure if their good works outweigh their sins, and so they think that they must recommit, rebaptise, walk the isle, give more, work harder etc. and hope, but not know that their salvation rest upon the “finished work of Jesus. They don’t understand the “rest” spoken of from Genesis to Revelation.
-
3
- Show all
Be sure to read the entire chapter. In verse 4, these men are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. The NAS says "doubly dead." *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*
A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is "twice dead."
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is "twice dead."
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."
Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
-
2
- Show all
There is a problem here. Let me put it simply, I know that Jesus gives me a choice, an agreement with Him.
Innate within this agreement is love and an open door.
Jesus chooses and calls. I do not know the limitations or where it will lead or how, because Jesus is changing
me. So your whole construction is man made, not based on Jesus. The whole point of Jesus and His heart is
He gives us the space and understanding to bow, to lay prostrate before Him and acknowledge He is the Lord.
The problem your expression has for me, is you speak as if you know. And it is this arrogance that is worrying,
and the idea because I know the door is open, is that and nothing more. And this is part of who Jesus is, there
is no forcing or binding, it is all based on who He is and we seeing in the light.
And the venom of people to those acknowledging knowing Jesus and His love. Clearly some do not know
who Jesus really is. God bless you, Praise the Lord for His freedom and His desire to have the door always
open, never forced. But I wonder if many really know how gracious the Lord is as shown by the parable
of the prodigal son.
Innate within this agreement is love and an open door.
Jesus chooses and calls. I do not know the limitations or where it will lead or how, because Jesus is changing
me. So your whole construction is man made, not based on Jesus. The whole point of Jesus and His heart is
He gives us the space and understanding to bow, to lay prostrate before Him and acknowledge He is the Lord.
The problem your expression has for me, is you speak as if you know. And it is this arrogance that is worrying,
and the idea because I know the door is open, is that and nothing more. And this is part of who Jesus is, there
is no forcing or binding, it is all based on who He is and we seeing in the light.
And the venom of people to those acknowledging knowing Jesus and His love. Clearly some do not know
who Jesus really is. God bless you, Praise the Lord for His freedom and His desire to have the door always
open, never forced. But I wonder if many really know how gracious the Lord is as shown by the parable
of the prodigal son.
Amen and then use Paul becoming unusable as a go to verse to teach one can lose it.....oblivious to the truth that Jesus is the source of faith and that if we become FAITHLESS he abides faithful to his promises.....the gifts (including salvation) and call of God are IRREVOCABLE......
Yet they (the salvation losers) equate salvation to something that can be lost like a dime in the street....
Street Organ playing dogma is what they peddle
Yet they (the salvation losers) equate salvation to something that can be lost like a dime in the street....
Street Organ playing dogma is what they peddle
-
4
- Show all
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Its not that I think the Lord is forcing me to stay with Him. Its that there isn't anywhere else that is going to be better.
I don't think that knowing something for certain is arrogant. Its just strong faith.
Its not that I think the Lord is forcing me to stay with Him. Its that there isn't anywhere else that is going to be better.
I don't think that knowing something for certain is arrogant. Its just strong faith.
-
3
- Show all