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posthuman said:
i do not think that God's sovereign purpose in having mercy on who He will necessarily means He creates anyone for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. Everyone is already on their way there; the real mystery is why He shows compassion to any of us
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It’s no mystery. That is just a cope out to support a theology which scripture does not support. The bible states multiple times across those who believe will be saved. It does not save those select who believe.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Based on your theology isn’t prayer pointless? Why are we told to pray if its all preset?

God bless
 
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Skyline said:
It’s no mystery. That is just a cope out to support a theology which scripture does not support. The bible states multiple times across those who believe will be saved. It does not save those select who believe.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Based on your theology isn’t prayer pointless? Why are we told to pray if its all preset?

God bless
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i don't think you understood what i said.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Had you not reversed the order of the verses, everything would be in perfect harmony. So what was Jesus saying in this passage?

1. The Son of God did not come to earth at His first advent to condemn of judge the world. Rather He came to save the world -- Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

2. Furthermore when you read John 3:17 in the KJV, the meaning is slightly difference -- "but that the world through Him might be saved". This means that God intended to save all of humanity by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world.

3. At the same time only those who obey the Gospel are saved (v 18): He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

4. Then Jesus explains why some are condemned (since they condemn themselves v 19):
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. So those who love their sins and evil deeds more than Christ and His offer of salvation will not obey the Gospel by repenting (turning away from sins) and believing on Christ.

5. Then finally we come to verse 20 which says For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. So evildoers do not come to Christ (the Light of the world) because they do not want to be convicted of their sin, nor do they want to forsake their evil deeds.

Whenever any sinner hears the Gospel, he or she is both convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit. But God compels no one to repent and be converted. He commands all men everywhere to repent, but He also tells evildoers that there are serious consequences for failure to obey the Gospel.
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what you are saying is that Jesus came to save, not to condemn

some choose salvation, some decline, which foolishly chose to be condemned instead just because people "love darkness" and refuse to choose to be saved
 
cv5 said:
That does nothing to answer how someone existing on this earth here and now who is dead in traspasses and sins can in and of themselves hear the Words of Christ.
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I disagree with your definition of dead.
I don’t know of a verse that says man is born hardened (please call it out if I missed it.)
Man is not born with a hardened heart but can do this to himself over time. This can then make them fit Mark 4:12 description (seeing but never perceiving etc) but man is not pre-depositioned to this at birth, we sin due to the fall of Adam but are not seared with hardness at birth due to it.
Hebrews 3:15, Romans 1:28, 1 Timothy 4:2

As for salvation? The gift of salvation is all from His grace and mercy but a person freely chooses to either accept or decline. I think the gospel itself is the grace with which the Holy Spirit works through - it enables those who hear it. Nothing more, God does not force people. Some rebel, with enough rebellion their hearts harden as God gives them “up” to their desires (Paul uses this term 3 times in Romans 1)

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:14-15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/2ti.3.14-15.niv

“Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬

My 2 cents :D
 
posthuman said:
i do not think that God's sovereign purpose in having mercy on who He will necessarily means He creates anyone for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. Everyone is already on their way there; the real mystery is why He shows compassion to any of us
Click to expand...
I think I understand what you’re saying. Please rephrase it if I misunderstand.
Wouldn’t John 3:16 show the great mystery in Him offering us a way to be saved? He so loved the world... he loves us:love: but as Romans CH 1-3 shows he has to be just. He cannot go against himself (his righteousness). He gave us a way when we could not create a way ourselves - his own Son!
This goes back to Romans 9 not having anything to do with predestined personal salvation per my earlier arguments.
Every person is given a choice from their own given free will.

(y) God is good
 
Skyline said:
It’s no mystery. That is just a cope out to support a theology which scripture does not support. The bible states multiple times across those who believe will be saved. It does not save those select who believe.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Based on your theology isn’t prayer pointless? Why are we told to pray if its all preset?

God bless
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"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”"

"If the LORD of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah."

Are gentiles somehow unique or improved in their inherent capacity for believing?
Not a chance. The volume of Scripture both OT and NT is overwhelming in declaring Gods sovereign choice. Jesus Himself agrees and says so plainly.

This busness of saving yourself is not supported by scripture. You did not participate in any way in your first birth or your second.....period end of debate.
 
Skyline said:
I think I understand what you’re saying. Please rephrase it if I misunderstand.
Wouldn’t John 3:16 show the great mystery in Him offering us a way to be saved? He so loved the world... he loves us:love: but as Romans CH 1-3 shows he has to be just. He cannot go against himself (his righteousness). He gave us a way when we could not create a way ourselves - his own Son!
This goes back to Romans 9 not having anything to do with predestined personal salvation per my earlier arguments.
Every person is given a choice from their own given free will.

(y) God is good
Click to expand...
No way Jose. Read Rom 9 again. And again. And again if necessary.
 
Skyline said:
I think I understand what you’re saying. Please rephrase it if I misunderstand.
Wouldn’t John 3:16 show the great mystery in Him offering us a way to be saved? He so loved the world... he loves us:love: but as Romans CH 1-3 shows he has to be just. He cannot go against himself (his righteousness). He gave us a way when we could not create a way ourselves - his own Son!
This goes back to Romans 9 not having anything to do with predestined personal salvation per my earlier arguments.
Every person is given a choice from their own given free will.

(y) God is good
Click to expand...
Oh yes God is good. He is not obliged to save anybody. But he willed to do so at great cost. God owes nobody anything. And he needs nothing from no one. Maybe that will dissipate the fog of pride works and self effort.
 
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cv5 said:
No way Jose. Read Rom 9 again. And again. And again if necessary.
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I’m reading it right. You’re reading it wrong. Mine flows with with the entire book of Romans, the Old Testament promise, and the description of the nature/characteristics of God throughout the bible. God picks what the promise is and to what people [Jews and Gentiles, not just the physical offspring of Abraham/Jacob] and how its offered [through faith] - it has nothing to do with predestined individual salvation.
My interpretation has less assumptions than yours.
 
cv5 said:
"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”"

"If the LORD of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we should have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah."

Are gentiles somehow unique or improved in their inherent capacity for believing?
Not a chance. The volume of Scripture both OT and NT is overwhelming in declaring Gods sovereign choice. Jesus Himself agrees and says so plainly.

This busness of saving yourself is not supported by scripture. You did not participate in any way in your first birth or your second.....period end of debate.
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Not true. Scripture says otherwise

Where does it say man is born hardened?? To not hear? It doesn’t.
 
Skyline said:
I’m reading it right. You’re reading it wrong. Mine flows with with the entire book of Romans, the Old Testament promise, and the description of the nature/characteristics of God throughout the bible. God picks what the promise is and to what people [Jews and Gentiles, not just the physical offspring of Abraham/Jacob] and how its offered [through faith] - it has nothing to do with predestined individual salvation.
My interpretation has less assumptions than yours.
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"I’m reading it right. You’re reading it wrong. "

No. Im simply reading it. An absolutely devastating chapter that wrecks any residual notions self effort.
 
cv5 said:
Scripture says EXACTLY what I posted as they are verbatim excerpts.
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Where does it say man is hardened at birth? It does not. We are warned to not hardened our hearts. Those dead can hear.
 
Skyline said:
Sorry, could you please rephrase it? Thanks!

Wish we had a high five emoji!
Click to expand...

i mean that people often bring up 'the problem of evil' -- but the real mystery is 'the problem of good'
'the problem of evil' presupposes that man is inherently good, and doesn't deserve 'bad things' to happen.
but the truth is that mankind is inherently wicked, and doesn't deserve mercy. this is intrinsic to the definition of mercy -- if you deserve it, it isn't mercy; it's an ethical reward.

so 'the real mystery' is why should God save anyone at all? why does His kindness forbear His holy judgment?
and it does, in fact, bring us right back to Romans 9 -- because salvation is not by works ((v.11)) and not by the will, desire or effort of man ((v.16)) but entirely by God's mercy ((v. 18)) -- which He has on whom He will ((v. 15)).



 
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