100% Election 100% of the time.

[PennEd]

He means so God would grant them what the ask for. Your arguing against your own beliefs, because if what you believe was true, it would matter what way the gospel was presented.

It's very simple. God decided to save people who acknowledge him,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

I believe in the complete rule of God over all creation. I think we disagree about the abilities God created us with.

I was drawn to Jesus by a believer I worked with, who came to visit me when I was in the pecan house. How did God draw you?


I already told you. Sin does cause death, but the belief that sinners are without any capacity to reason simply isn't true.

their foolish hearts were darkened Rom.1:21

Forgetting God leads us their, but we weren't there to begin with.

I may have mentioned before how utterly inept I am at many even basic computer skills. Can someone kindly, as if you are speaking to a child, explain how I grab only a section of a post to respond to? I've tried several times only to fumble badly!


I think you are asking about my testimony in becoming a child of God. I'll make it as short as I can.

Grew up catholic, grammar school Nuns pulling ears and smacking knuckles and all. Took my timecard to Mass, and endured extreme boredom, and didn't know at the time, but even MORE extreme heresy. Good thing I didn't pay attention much.

My brother went in the Navy and received the True Gospel and was saved. He told it to me, and several yrs passed when he asked me to go to his Church one time. What!!? He knew what we endured at catholic church. I DID the church thing. No WAY I'm doing that again! To this very day, I either can't remember, or don't know how I found myself at his Church one day!

Almost immediately something was vastly DIFFERENT. At 1st I didn't know what it was. Then it struck me. The Holy Spirit was there and palpable. Soon after, I acknowledged to God that I was a sinner unable to save myself, and that Jesus His Son, was the Lord and my Savior, and that He was raised from the grave. And that I loved Him.

I was very hungry for the Word, and read it, and studied it. I'd like to say "and lived happily ever after..." Unfortunately, I was still caught up in several sins that seemed to have a stronghold. This culminated in the most horrible spiritual attacks that I don't even want to get into. Suffice to say it had massive repercussions. The worst being I thought I had lost my Salvation and could never get it back.

For the better part of a decade I couldn't step foot in any Church, didn't want to hear about God, and couldn't even tolerate a Christian song. I wasn't bitter, or angry with God or Christians, it was just that I felt that awful condemnation. A TRUE spiritual desert.

Once again however the Lord came and rescued me! I somehow found myself on my knees praying to Him, and in what was only really a split second, I think, yet felt like forever, He came to me and said "Ed ALL of your sins have been forgiven" The peace in that moment surpassed all understanding.

SINCE then, I literally cannot count the Blessings He has bestowed on me. Everything from an incredible job, whereas I lost my business during my fall, to leading a Bible study of over 30 people who I love dearly and love me.

And now that I look back, I can see Romans 8:28 in actual action all through my life!

Now you want to tell me that wasn't ALL FROM THE LORD, and somehow it was MY choices that brought me to Him and back again? NOT POSSIBLE!

But I hold no ill will for those that think differently, and wish He blesses you as well.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen...many called but few chosen.....how many times do we need to get through our heads that many is not all and few is not all of the many.....to say man "a" will be saved and man "b" is S.O.L........is idiotic and denies a plethora of scripture in context!!

Absolutely true and NOT the God of the Bible!

 

[UnderGrace]

​

Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. ​

(Luke 15:4-6)​

​

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.​

(John 10:1)​

The sheep are those that are already His in the top verse.

The second verse is talking about a "he" who is not a true shepherd ....because he did not enter by the door.

 

[posthuman]

The sheep are those that are already His in the top verse.

The second verse is talking about a "he" who is not a true shepherd ....because he did not enter by the door.

Like we saw earlier, the ones that don't believe, don't because they aren't His sheep - and I just meant by the second, hey look, He goes through the door - carrying the lost sheep on His shoulders.

He came to seek and to save the lost, ya know

I'm not trying to put you down at all, of course. Just that I read your post and thought, wait, I think I do know a verse about God carrying someone through the door. Or maybe more than one verse, because how else is a cripple or a lame person going to enter the wedding feast?

 

[posthuman]

I may have mentioned before how utterly inept I am at many even basic computer skills. Can someone kindly, as if you are speaking to a child, explain how I grab only a section of a post to respond to? I've tried several times only to fumble badly!

If you highlight only the section you want to reply to a little button that says reply should pop up next to the highlighted text. Click it and it should make a quote block in the reply box

Sometimes that's finicky on a phone, just try re-highlighting again if the little reply button doesn't appear

 

[Skyline]

If you guys cant see Romans 9 as about Israel then I don't know what to say... the way you’re interpreting does not go with the rest of Romans and the bible.
And Pharoah does do with Israel, he held them captive for 400 years.
Paul would have talked about it in Romans 6 but he didnt becayse it does not exist.
Everyone can be saved if they believe.

Just try to read Romans 9 in entire as if a Jew during that time to humor me

God bless

 

[Journeyman]

Now you want to tell me that wasn't ALL FROM THE LORD, and somehow it was MY choices that brought me to Him and back again?

My point was, where faith in God is concerned, Jesus said we need to become like little children, because there isn't one little child on the face of this earth who doesn't believe what his parents tell him.

I don't believe God created anyone without the ability to believe in him.

 

[Skyline]

does verse 20 say 'but who are you, a nation, to talk back to God?' or does it say 'an human being' ?

to me, it doesn't seem to 'explain away' the profound things said in this chapter by attributing them all solely to nations, because even if so, every nation is composed of individuals. i don't see how a people can be sovereignly purposed without also the persons that comprise it -- and one of Paul's major thesis in this chapter is that 'not all Israel is Israel' but God has continually sifted it, separating to Himself a remnant, even from the beginning choosing Isaac, then Jacob, and so on. and this selection process being described is said to be 'in order that His purpose in election might stand'

i see nations, too, but nations are made of people.

How I see it:
I see nations when I see Esau and Jacob written.
Like you said people makeup a nation.
The question is from, and directed by Paul to, be from a Jew who kept the Law.

How are sovereignly purposed:
People are not born hardened. We are made in His amazing image even in a fallen state. To harden oneself is a personal choice. The Jews at that time hardened themselves by twisting the Law and demanding righteousness (Romans 10:3). God hardened them in that he let them continue down that road and used it for a bigger purpose (His purpose). Jesus could have come from the clouds to the Jews. He could have had angels announce his arrival. God did it his way. The Jews rejected him themselves as he came.
Romans 9, 10, and 11 are about Israel and Jews.

Since the Jews are hardened does that mean God doesn’t want to save them? No (Romans 11)

Q: if Paul is saying what you’re saying, but not directly, why does he say this directly in the next chapter?
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Love ya!

 

[Skyline]

The predominant theme in Romans 9 is surely God's sovereign choice. Israel is the incidental beneficiary as are we.

John 15....there it is again!

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Col 3.....again!

"Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."

What did he chose? You’re saying individuals based on a lottery? (I’m assuming based on your interpretation of Romans 9?) - I see chose the church as an entity.
Example I see: Plane leaves tomorrow, its destined for heaven. That is very different then saying the airline also picks the people flying on the plane. The plane is headed for heaven.
God is good - he offers a seat to ALL who board.

 

[posthuman]

What did he chose? You’re saying individuals based on a lottery? (I’m assuming based on your interpretation of Romans 9?) - I see chose the church as an entity.
Example I see: Plane leaves tomorrow, its destined for heaven. That is very different then saying the airline also picks the people flying on the plane. The plane is headed for heaven.
God is good - he offers a seat to ALL who board.

How would someone complain 'why does He judge us, for who can resist His will?' if we are only talking about political entities, not people?

 

[cv5]

What did he chose? You’re saying individuals based on a lottery? (I’m assuming based on your interpretation of Romans 9?) - I see chose the church as an entity.
Example I see: Plane leaves tomorrow, its destined for heaven. That is very different then saying the airline also picks the people flying on the plane. The plane is headed for heaven.
God is good - he offers a seat to ALL who board.

Nobody knows for sure my friend. But IMO, God as prime mover, the first in all things, omniscient, is the One who foreordaines the elect. Those whom He wills He hardens. Despite this, "all" and "whosoever" may come. And beyond all of this, God is blameless,holy, just, and willing to forgive.

 

[cv5]

What did he chose? You’re saying individuals based on a lottery? (I’m assuming based on your interpretation of Romans 9?) - I see chose the church as an entity.
Example I see: Plane leaves tomorrow, its destined for heaven. That is very different then saying the airline also picks the people flying on the plane. The plane is headed for heaven.
God is good - he offers a seat to ALL who board.

Human reason and logic is useless and fruitless in this matter IMO.

 

[Skyline]

How would someone complain 'why does He judge us, for who can resist His will?' if we are only talking about political entities, not people?

Please see my post #208
How I see it:
Romans 9 is about Jewish people as a nation
John 15 and Col 3 is about the entity
Ephesians 1 is about the entity
He chose us (the church as an entity)

Bible is a story, spoken to individuals at times, groups at times, and entities at times.
Romans 9 is to the Jews

 

[Skyline]

Human reason and logic is useless and fruitless in this matter IMO.

Not true, my interpretation is consistent with the nature of God throughout the entire bible.
He is love, patient, kind, merciful, righteous, peace, and more.
Such a God does not create some humans and send them automatically to hell.
In my opinion to say he does is to speak against his character, AKA blasphemy.

 

[UnderGrace]

Human reason and logic is useless and fruitless in this matter IMO.

Actually we called to use our reason in scripture.

 

[Skyline]

Nobody knows for sure my friend. But IMO, God as prime mover, the first in all things, omniscient, is the One who foreordaines the elect. Those whom He wills He hardens. Despite this, "all" and "whosoever" may come. And beyond all of this, God is blameless,holy, just, and willing to forgive.

He does not foreordain individuals for heaven or hell - scripture does not support this.
Does he know who chooses since he is past/present/future, I think he does.
He has given man free-will. Somehow this is mixed with his foresight. I can’t understand this but I also don’t get how he created earth from words.

If all is set then prayer is useless too.

Love ya

 

[cv5]

Actually we called to use our reason in scripture.

Paul never invokes human reason when expounding upon election. The void is unavoidable.

 

[Skyline]

Paul never invokes human reason when expounding upon election. The void is unavoidable.

Not true, there is no void. The bible is a story, it describes characters with traits. It does not support the traits of a God who creates and predestines, without any act, certain people to hell.

This is a trait that Satan would have. Based on his description as told through the Bible. Satan hates mankind, he wishes for all to perish.

Do you believe God hates some, and Satan hates all?

I’ve stated my interpretation on Romans 9.

I’m honestly curious what other scripture/context is used to support picked/not-picked. I’ve read Romans 9 both ways to see both sides. Based on how Romans 9 stars and ends, with/about Israel and Ch 10 and Ch 11 about Israel, and the nature of God (loving, good, holy, righteous, patient, caring, etc.) as described in the whole bible predestined heaven/hell does not match.
God bless you

 

[Skyline]

Also how do you know for certain you’re really one of the chosen? What if you’re going through the motions? If it happened to Charles Templeton why can’t it happen to you?

I’ve put myself conceptually and in thought on the other side. Have you? Imagine for a few minutes you’re “not chosen”, nothing you did or can do. Would you tell yourself tough luck and who are you to question God? Like I’ve said before its those on the inside, who think they’re safe, that say tough luck to those on the outside.
Thankfully its not true, ALL are free to accept the gift of salvation

Do you believe prayer is useless? Why are we told to pray?

 

[posthuman]

Such a God does not create some humans and send them automatically to hell.

i do not think that God's sovereign purpose in having mercy on who He will necessarily means He creates anyone for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. Everyone is already on their way there; the real mystery is why He shows compassion to any of us