Question for OSAS people. (from a believer who believes that God does indeed preserve us)

[Grandpa]

Does OSAS mean that we can sin all we want and even stop believing in Jesus and still be saved? Because I ran into some who support and or defend this view

Sort of. But the question shows a person who doesn't understand Salvation.

A person who is saved can "sin all they want" and still be saved. But that saved person doesn't want to sin. At all.


Also the hypothetical 'stop believing in Jesus' is impossible for the saved person. Say you were drowning. You were just about to give up and die because it was over. Then at the last minute someone pulls you out and saves you. That's a pretty big event in your life, right? Are you going to forget the name of the person who saved you? Are you going to deny that it happened? Salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ is an even bigger event. Not possible to forget or deny.


There's no way to really defend or deny your position because the position is a misunderstanding of Salvation from a carnal view of working at the law.

 

[Macabeus]

Sort of. But the question shows a person who doesn't understand Salvation.

A person who is saved can "sin all they want" and still be saved. But that saved person doesn't want to sin. At all.


Also the hypothetical 'stop believing in Jesus' is impossible for the saved person. Say you were drowning. You were just about to give up and die because it was over. Then at the last minute someone pulls you out and saves you. That's a pretty big event in your life, right? Are you going to forget the name of the person who saved you? Are you going to deny that it happened? Salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ is an even bigger event. Not possible to forget or deny.


There's no way to really defend or deny your position because the position is a misunderstanding of Salvation from a carnal view of working at the law.

It's not my position. It is someone else's. Actually, it seems to be the position of several people that I have been talking to on this website for a while.

If you'll notice, I have been liking/agreeing to the posts that answer "no" to the question of the OP.

 

[oyster67]

Sort of. But the question shows a person who doesn't understand Salvation.

A person who is saved can "sin all they want" and still be saved. But that saved person doesn't want to sin. At all.


Also the hypothetical 'stop believing in Jesus' is impossible for the saved person. Say you were drowning. You were just about to give up and die because it was over. Then at the last minute someone pulls you out and saves you. That's a pretty big event in your life, right? Are you going to forget the name of the person who saved you? Are you going to deny that it happened? Salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ is an even bigger event. Not possible to forget or deny.


There's no way to really defend or deny your position because the position is a misunderstanding of Salvation from a carnal view of working at the law.

It is hard to believe that anyone would turn away, but It is also hard to believe that anyone would reject such great salvation in the first place. But we don't base doctrine on what we find easy or hard to believe. We base doctrine on what the Bible says.

Hebrews 2
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[Macabeus]

It is hard to believe that anyone would turn away, but It is also hard to believe that anyone would reject such great salvation in the first place. But we don't base doctrine on what we find easy or hard to believe. We base doctrine on what the Bible says.

Hebrews 2
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

That is a warning that must be taken heed of, for sure. I'd like to hear some comments on this passage from others, if anyone would like to comment on these very important verses.

And I agree 1,000 percent on we base our beliefs on the Bible, not on what we find easy to believe, personal experience, or what we see others doing. All of those other things (that are not the Bible) are shifting sands of a foundation

 

[Locoponydirtman]

The case against the false doctrine of OSAS

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their
own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebrews 6:
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
38 but my righteous ones shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Hebrews 10:

You don't believe that a person who "backslides" can be restored to repentance and salvation?

And then at what point is a person that was saved, lost again?

What level of sin or how many sins is it that is the final straw?

All sin every person Christian or not sins .

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I'm trying to make sense of it all.

 

[AuntieAnt]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

When God calls a man and reveals Himself to that man, can anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent God now? No.

When Christ Jesus was crucified for sin, did anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent Him now? No.

When the Holy Spirit creates a new creature from a dead man, can anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent Him now? No.

No man can prevent God from doing anything. The only problem we are presented with once we come to the Light, is continuing to walk in the spirit (believing God), or choosing to walk in the flesh (believing our own understanding). God is no longer dealing with us as servants of sin, but as children of righteousness. He began and will continue and complete what He Himself started in His child. You can't prevent Him from doing so. You can only believe Him or not.

If you think you were saved by any efforts of your own, you are choosing to walk in the flesh. And if you think you can keep yourself saved, you are choosing to walk in the flesh. Christ Jesus already accomplished salvation for us on the Cross and sanctifies us by His Spirit. We (our former selves) are crucified with Christ. The only dilemma now is, do you believe Him?

The only thing we can "cleanse ourselves" from is our own understanding. We have to keep putting off the natural flesh mind and choosing to put on the mind of Christ, to see as He sees. We have to choose to believe Jesus and not our own understanding of Him. We have to close our natural ears to the world (religious world, too) and listen to the Spirit of God.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” [Romans 7:25] Your natural mind, the flesh, cannot nor ever will submit to God, it’s impossible. You cannot make your outward man righteous, it’s dead. You can’t keep it righteous, it’s dead. You must come to that realization and humble yourself to God, submit your very thoughts to Him so you can see the truth. God rules a Christian’s life and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent Him from doing so.

The only alternative is not to believe Him. It won’t change the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord over you forever, but you will be choosing to walk blind to the truth.

 

[Macabeus]

I grew up in the Lord in my early years as an Arminian, and I thought that people who believe in OSAS, perserverance of the saints, believed you can sin all you want and be saved. As I studied Theology, and actually read viewpoints that differed from mine, I found that this was not at all true IN MOST CASES. I do not completely agree with Calvinism on the points of Limited Atonement, irresistible grace, and double predestination (which not all Calvinists believe), so I am not a Calvinist. But I found their writings on Sanctification in many cases to be very good. I recommend "The Mortification of sin in the Believer" by John Owen.

 

[Macabeus]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

When God calls a man and reveals Himself to that man, can anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent God now? No.

When Christ Jesus was crucified for sin, did anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent Him now? No.

When the Holy Spirit creates a new creature from a dead man, can anything prevent Him from doing so? No. Can you prevent Him now? No.

No man can prevent God from doing anything. The only problem we are presented with once we come to the Light, is continuing to walk in the spirit (believing God), or choosing to walk in the flesh (believing our own understanding). God is no longer dealing with us as servants of sin, but as children of righteousness. He began and will continue and complete what He Himself started in His child. You can't prevent Him from doing so. You can only believe Him or not.

If you think you were saved by any efforts of your own, you are choosing to walk in the flesh. And if you think you can keep yourself saved, you are choosing to walk in the flesh. Christ Jesus already accomplished salvation for us on the Cross and sanctifies us by His Spirit. We (our former selves) are crucified with Christ. The only dilemma now is, do you believe Him?

The only thing we can "cleanse ourselves" from is our own understanding. We have to keep putting off the natural flesh mind and choosing to put on the mind of Christ, to see as He sees. We have to choose to believe Jesus and not our own understanding of Him. We have to close our natural ears to the world (religious world, too) and listen to the Spirit of God.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” [Romans 7:25] Your natural mind, the flesh, cannot nor ever will submit to God, it’s impossible. You cannot make your outward man righteous, it’s dead. You can’t keep it righteous, it’s dead. You must come to that realization and humble yourself to God, submit your very thoughts to Him so you can see the truth. God rules a Christian’s life and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent Him from doing so.

The only alternative is not to believe Him. It won’t change the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord over you forever, but you will be choosing to walk blind to the truth.

The old man was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin would be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin. (romans 6:6)

DO we still sin? I won't answer for others, but I do. I do not claim to be sinless. But that is not the point. The point is, we are no longer to be slaves to sin.

I have said that I, and I think we all should be, in the process of daily mortifying sin, with the realization and reckoning that we are no longer slaves sold under sin, but we have died to sin and are alive with Christ, bought with a price, not our own, and we need to be glorifying Him in our body and our spirit which are His, and we are exhorted to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord

Not that OSAS teaches that we are slaves to sin. There are many, probably most, OSAS people that agree that a Christian is no longer a slave to sin. But this thread was started because there is at least one person that believes that Christians are still slaves to sin, and several others that defend him, without explicitely stating that they believe the same. I kind of started this thread for them, because they kind of flock together and amen each other, and I was hoping they would come here and get out of their echo chamber. And I see a couple have.

 

[oyster67]

I just want you all to know that I do NOT believe that God requires absolute sinlessness and perfection. My main thing is that I believe He requires that we keep trying to do the best we can. We can all do our best. No excuses if we don't.

 

[Guojing]

I just want you all to know that I do NOT believe that God requires absolute sinlessness and perfection. My main thing is that I believe He requires that we keep trying to do the best we can. We can all do our best. No excuses if we don't.

I feel that is a recipe for disaster. You don't have to try to be who you really are. You must rest in the finished work that Christ has done for you, that you are already perfect because of Christ's obedience.

Those with a revelation of that truth will not be eager to sin.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I just want you all to know that I do NOT believe that God requires absolute sinlessness and perfection. My main thing is that I believe He requires that we keep trying to do the best we can. We can all do our best. No excuses if we don't.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version


1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

 

[Macabeus]

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version


1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

i don't think Oyster is tallking about working for salvation. In fact, I know he's not.

Basically what he is saying is "strive for perfection even though we will never be perfect in this body. (I mean never be perfect in the matter of sinlessness perfection in walk)

...and the striving is not to obtain salvation. We do this knowing we are already saved.

...and the striving is not to retain salvation, for we are kept by the power of God through faith

..and the striving is not to add to salvation, for salvation is all of Grace.

It is to bring glory to God. Glorify God in your spirit and body, which are HIS. (1 Corinthians 6:20)

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

i don't think Oyster is tallking about working for salvation. In fact, I know he's not.

Basically what he is saying is "strive for perfection even though we will never be perfect in this body. (I mean never be perfect in the matter of sinlessness perfection in walk)

...and the striving is not to obtain salvation. We do this knowing we are already saved.

...and the striving is not to retain salvation, for we are kept by the power of God through faith

..and the striving is not to add to salvation, for salvation is all of Grace.

It is to bring glory to God. Glorify God in your spirit and body, which are HIS. (1 Corinthians 6:20)

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I used those scripture verses because I wanted to say that GOD DOES require perfection but man Is carnal.I didn’t agree with what he posted but If he meant the same thing you are explaining then I agree.

 

[John146]

Not that OSAS teaches that we are slaves to sin. There are many, probably most, OSAS people that agree that a Christian is no longer a slave to sin. But this thread was started because there is at least one person that believes that Christians are still slaves to sin, and several others that defend him, without explicitely stating that they believe the same. I kind of started this thread for them, because they kind of flock together and amen each other, and I was hoping they would come here and get out of their echo chamber. And I see a couple have.

I don’t know any on here who believes we are slaves to sin after salvation.

The book of Philemon is a great picture of being set free from the slavery of the law as Christ has placed our sins on His account, aka imputed righteousness.

 

[Macabeus]

I don’t know any on here who believes we are slaves to sin after salvation.

The book of Philemon is a great picture of being set free from the slavery of the law as Christ has placed our sins on His account, aka imputed righteousness.

Post 79,086-Not of Works, Budman...

Do you still sin? Then you're walking after the flesh. And you'll never be able to escape that fact, no matter how you try to twist it.

Are you free from sinning? Paul said of himself, "I am the chief of sinners." Not "I was".

You love giving the impression you are not a "slave" to sin, and yet we both know you sin every single day of your life.

Bud believes that the New Nature is sinless and the flesh is a slave to sin. Then he turns around and says that because the flesh is slave to sin, we are slave to sin, because we sin every day.

But I believe that the deeds of the flesh must be mortified BECAUSE we are no longer slaves to sin. (Romans 8:13)

 

[Macabeus]

I don’t know any on here who believes we are slaves to sin after salvation.

One has said that if you sin every day, you are a slave to sin, and then said that EVERYONE, even Christians sin every day.


I disagree with the first premise. I believe that the deeds of the flesh (our sins) are to be put to death BECAUSE we are no longer slaves to sin. (Romans 8:13)

The book of Philemon is a great picture of being set free from the slavery of the law as Christ has placed our sins on His account, aka imputed righteousness.

Christ's death has also broken the power of sin over us. (Romans 6:6)

 

[Macabeus]

I don’t know any on here who believes we are slaves to sin after salvation.

The book of Philemon is a great picture of being set free from the slavery of the law as Christ has placed our sins on His account, aka imputed righteousness.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4952#post-3915268

Post 99,040 Not of Works (link above)- Bud said we are all slaves to sin, because none of us can stop.

I believe that we can and should put to death the deeds of the flesh Romans 8:13,

(though that is an ongoing process 2 Corinthians 7:1,1 John 3:3 ),

because we ARE NO LONGER SLAVES TO SIN.

 

[Grandpa]

It is hard to believe that anyone would turn away, but It is also hard to believe that anyone would reject such great salvation in the first place. But we don't base doctrine on what we find easy or hard to believe. We base doctrine on what the Bible says.

Hebrews 2
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Its not hard to believe that people would turn away. Not very many understand what is going on with Salvation to begin with. I expect it is because people haven't worked out their own Salvation by studying the bible and asking the Lord.

IF we based doctrine on what the bible ACTUALLY says then we wouldn't have any arguments on what Salvation is.

But the problem is that we have people that think they see but are actually blind trying to tell the people who ACTUALLY see what is Truth and what is not.

In the end your understanding, whether great or small, comes from the Lord. And if it is your understanding that you can lose your Salvation then I'm sure there is a reason for it. I personally don't know what that would be. It is against the Faith and so obvious to people who are Saved I don't know how it passes for Christianity. Unless there are just so few real Christians out there that their voices are drowned out by the pretenders...


I used to think "maybe I'm wrong". Maybe all these people who think men earn their salvation by their works and keep their salvation by being good are right. I better study to find out for sure. There are some pretty compelling arguments some people have to show how people can lose their salvation after they have received it.

The funny thing is that people who are wrong never say "I could be wrong". They state their falsities as if they are Biblical Fact. Its funny how rampant this is. Not just in the Christian community but everywhere you can hear people say things that are obviously untrue as if they were fact.

 

[Limey410v2]

Does OSAS mean that we can sin all we want and even stop believing in Jesus and still be saved? Because I ran into some who support and or defend this view

OSAS, means once you are saved you are always saved. I do not believe that statement comes with caveats. The OSAS statement is definitive, not nuanced. In essence your OP is creating the strawman.
We can argue all day about whether someone is saved or not, but that is a totally different subject.

 

[Grandpa]

Post 79,086-Not of Works, Budman...



Bud believes that the New Nature is sinless and the flesh is a slave to sin. Then he turns around and says that because the flesh is slave to sin, we are slave to sin, because we sin every day.

But I believe that the deeds of the flesh must be mortified BECAUSE we are no longer slaves to sin. (Romans 8:13)

You would disagree that the flesh is slave to sin?

The Lust of the flesh, the Lust of the eyes and the pride of Life do not run our lives any longer because we are not slaves to them.

But to say they don't still have an effect on us would be untruthful.


So it would be better to say that there is a War going on inside of us between our New Nature and flesh. We want our New Nature to be the one we follow but we have followed the flesh for so long that we sometimes do things in the flesh without thinking about them. And because we do those things in the flesh without thinking about them we are a slave to it from time to time. Maybe we don't want to be. But that doesn't change the fact.


As a Christian, when we look at a person who is trapped in their sin with no knowledge of a Saviour, we don't look at them with contempt. We look at them as people with no knowledge of the Truth. We used to be EXACTLY like them. The only difference is that the Lord picked us up and washed us off.