Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

[Dino246]

You assume that Paul is speaking in tongues in similar fashion to what is spoken today. I do not believe that the narrative supports that Paul spoke without knowledge of what he was saying. Paul knew several languages and spoke to different audiences is those languages when it was appropriate. The Corinthians made speaking in tongues something it was never meant to be.

In Acts we have folks getting saved and speaking in tongues with the audience comprehending what was said in their native language. What was going on in Corinth is not the same from what we can deduce from the scriptures. We do not have any record of what was said by any of these believers. I find that strange.

There is nothing in 1 Cor 12-14 that supports the fantasy that folks were speaking in a heavenly language. There is the probability that some spoke in their language and no one else present understood that language hence the need for an interpreter.

What we have today is folks getting excited about gifts for the sake of demonstrating power. Here again I do not see this a operating in love but rather personal gratification.

Your eisegesis, elaborate though it may be, does not consider the rest of scripture and the new nature Christ has given those who love Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You would make the gift of the Holy Spirit nothing more than a learned ability.

Have you come across anyone, ever, with the learned ability to prophesy accurately? How about work miracles (and I don't mean the parlour tricks of charlatans)? Or perhaps healing? No? Then it's unlikely that the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are learned abilities.

Nothing in Scripture requires that the manifestation of speaking in tongues as described in 1 Corinthians 12 must conform to the pattern of Acts 2. We just assume that it should. Acts 10 doesn't conform to Acts 2 either, but that is conveniently overlooked.

 

[UnderGrace]

You would make the gift of the Holy Spirit nothing more than a learned ability.

Have you come across anyone, ever, with the learned ability to prophesy accurately? How about work miracles (and I don't mean the parlour tricks of charlatans)? Or perhaps healing? No? Then it's unlikely that the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are learned abilities.

Nothing in Scripture requires that the manifestation of speaking in tongues as described in 1 Corinthians 12 must conform to the pattern of Acts 2. We just assume that it should. Acts 10 doesn't conform to Acts 2 either, but that is conveniently overlooked.

Perhaps one needs to consider that languages in 1Cor 12 were non miraculous gifts as was "helps" and "governments", sure would change the whole meaning of 1Cor14?

 

[notuptome]

You would make the gift of the Holy Spirit nothing more than a learned ability.

Have you come across anyone, ever, with the learned ability to prophesy accurately? How about work miracles (and I don't mean the parlour tricks of charlatans)? Or perhaps healing? No? Then it's unlikely that the gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are learned abilities.

Nothing in Scripture requires that the manifestation of speaking in tongues as described in 1 Corinthians 12 must conform to the pattern of Acts 2. We just assume that it should. Acts 10 doesn't conform to Acts 2 either, but that is conveniently overlooked.

Learning a language is indeed a gift from God. Prophesy depending on which definition we apply can and today is a learned ability given by the Holy Spirit. Future telling is not modern prophesy. Exposition of Gods word is modern prophesy.

The Lord told us that the Holy Spirit would not operate outside of what God has given in His word. The Holy Spirit is always in submission to Gods word.

John 16: 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

Learning a language is indeed a gift from God.

Can you elaborate??
Are you talking about believers or non-believers or both?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

It is not wise to judge and ridicule something you don't understand.
I did not watch the videos you posted but the bible gives a clear warning to those who suggest that the operation of the Holy Ghost is a manifestation of the devil.

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3:28-29

John 3:11
"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

..."It is not wise to judge and ridicule something you don't understand"
... "I did not watch the videos you posted".

Do you judge without knowing the contents of the subject?
Do you understand the video since you didn't watch it?
Do you know what ridicule means?
Do you know the definition of blasphemy?
Do you think you will escape eternal damnation?
Do you think you will convince me of a lie?

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

 

[KelbyofGod]

This is your view. But i cant find this teaching anywhere in the bible ore in churchhistory till 1901 with the first person Agnes Ozman.

Wolfwint,

God has always kept a remnant. Just like in Elijah's day, the remnant is often hidden and not always the most visible...and of course, the remnant is probably not written about by the powers that be, except scornfully.

Early in the thread I thought you were suggesting tongues itself wasn't active during the 300 AD -1901 A.D. time period, but now it seems you are more specific to it being that the doctrine of "you need tongues" that you question. The answer to both of those is as follows.

If you want to know if (unknown) tongues was still present during that time, you are invited to ask God (sincerely) to show you IF they were present, IF they were there the whole time, and IF so, to show you a sufficient amount of evidence backing up that fact. Then remain open to read the evidence that GOD brings to your attention.

I'm pointing you to God rather than myself because 1) MY "proof" might not be what you need ....and 2) If we make our decisions about important stuff like this without seriously seeking God's face, we're kind of set up for failure from the start. Let"s ask God to be God in this matter and show himself strong. But I ask you NOT to do what some do and throw up a hasty request then declare that God never answered. If you're going to ask in honesty and sincerity, then allow him to answer in honesty and sincerity. (Don't MAKE UP answers for him.)

Continued on next post...

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

On the second point of... "Is speaking in (unknown) tongues necessary?"... The answer to that is in the fact of what speaking in tongues IS, and what speaking in tongues IS DOING.

That is what this thread is supposed to be about... explaining the different kinds of "tongues" and purposes of each... as well as other gifts. ...(That seems a simple enough idea to me)... But what happens is that the people who hate/fight/discount/disbelieve or simply don't have any of the SPIRIT-given (not naturally learned) kinds of tongues are used to flood the room with non-use, non-existence and non-clarification speech in order to keep others from learning.

Some may not realize it but they are fulfilling the scripture which says "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13)

I consider you to be in the "simply don't have" category ... but pay close attention to your actions and posts. Are they geared towards helping people to use 'unknown' tongues properly? Or how to function in the (agreed) greater capacity of one who prophesies? Are you teaching people HOW to get gifts of the spirit to function (perhaps in a mission context)?

Again, I speak to you openly because I believe you have the potential to be humble and understand.

Please consider the following before teaching:
It is hard (if not impossible) for someone who does not have a thing, to properly teach HOW to use it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

This is your view. But i cant find this teaching anywhere in the bible ore in churchhistory till 1901 with the first person Agnes Ozman.

 

[Waggles]

Those without the Holy Spirit are not saved

That is your doctrine.
And it is you who are first, condemning Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox servants;
and second, condemning without hope all other people who have dwelled upon the face of the Earth.
Salvation is not just for the Spirit-filled church, otherwise why would there be a throne of judgement before which all
who have ever lived need to stand before?

 

[Dino246]

Prophesy depending on which definition we apply can and today is a learned ability given by the Holy Spirit. Future telling is not modern prophesy. Exposition of Gods word is modern prophesy.

Scripture doesn't actually support that definition. It's a convenient addition for those who don't believe in the present-day operation of the gifts. By the way, the verb form is "prophesy" while the noun form is "prophecy".

The Lord told us that the Holy Spirit would not operate outside of what God has given in His word. The Holy Spirit is always in submission to Gods word.

Where is that in Scripture?

Learning a language is indeed a gift from God.

Perhaps one needs to consider that languages in 1Cor 12 were non miraculous gifts as was "helps" and "governments", sure would change the whole meaning of 1Cor14?

Almost anyone can learn a language... saved or not. How can it be a gift of the Holy Spirit if anyone can do it?

 

[notuptome]

That is your doctrine.
And it is you who are first, condemning Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox servants;
and second, condemning without hope all other people who have dwelled upon the face of the Earth.
Salvation is not just for the Spirit-filled church, otherwise why would there be a throne of judgement before which all
who have ever lived need to stand before?

That is bible doctrine. Read Ephesians 2. No Holy Spirit no life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Where is that in Scripture?

John 16:13

When was the last time you endeavored to learn another language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

Almost anyone can learn a language... saved or not. How can it be a gift of the Holy Spirit if anyone can do it?

Well that is the big question whether Paul is speaking about a miraculous gift or........ a gift, talent, aptitude that some may have more than others.

 

[Dino246]

John 16:13

Neither that verse nor any proximal to it say that "the Holy Spirit would not operate outside of what God has given in His word" or "The Holy Spirit is always in submission to Gods word."

When was the last time you endeavored to learn another language?

Relevance?

 

[Waggles]

That is bible doctrine. Read Ephesians 2. No Holy Spirit no life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger

The epistles are indeed written to Spirit-filled Christians who make up the body of Christ and yes it is explained that those who
are true worshippers have life through the indwelling Spirit of God.
We are sealed by the Holy Ghost and empowered to live the gospel not only through the assistance of the nine gifts that are
distributed within the Spirit-filled church, but also by our daily and often praying in tongues (evoking the power and work of the
Holy Spirit).
We have a confidence and hope of our salvation by submission to the Word and in being lead by the Spirit and in remaining steadfast and true to the end.
The saints have the promise of being part of the first resurrection and not having fear of the throne of judgement and the lake of fire.
But this does not exclude grace and mercy from Jesus who will ultimately judge the living and the dead … everybody else.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Revelation 20:

 

[Dino246]

Well that is the big question whether Paul is speaking about a miraculous gift or........ a gift, talent, aptitude that some may have more than others.

Again, I would ask why speaking in tongues would be considered a gift of the Holy Spirit when an unbeliever can learn a language as well. While the Holy Spirit can empower someone to learn a language, most missionaries have to learn the old way... by hard work and repetition.

Some people have a natural ability to learn languages. Some people have a natural ability to connect with seniors. Some are gifted painters, or mechanics, or whatever. Natural talents are not discussed in 1 Corinthians 12. Miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are.

 

[Waggles]

10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Corinthians 12:

 

[UnderGrace]

Again, I would ask why speaking in tongues would be considered a gift of the Holy Spirit when an unbeliever can learn a language as well. While the Holy Spirit can empower someone to learn a language, most missionaries have to learn the old way... by hard work and repetition.

Some people have a natural ability to learn languages. Some people have a natural ability to connect with seniors. Some are gifted painters, or mechanics, or whatever. Natural talents are not discussed in 1 Corinthians 12. Miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are.

If some of the manifestations of the Spirit (or "gifts") are not miraculous abilities (e.g.,"steersmanship" and "helps"), then abilities in multiple languages and translations of multiple languages (1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30) could also be non-miraculous manifestations of the Spirit.

I think in context of Paul's writing, the problems of the Church at Corinth, the diverse backgrounds of the members, this needs to be considered......especially as one moves through the next chapters.

 

[Dino246]

If some of the manifestations of the Spirit (or "gifts") are not miraculous abilities (e.g.,"steersmanship" and "helps"), then abilities in multiple languages and translations of multiple languages (1 Cor 12:10, 28, 30) could also be non-miraculous manifestations of the Spirit.

I think in context of Paul's writing, the problems of the Church at Corinth, the diverse backgrounds of the members, this needs to be considered......especially as one moves through the next chapters.

Agreed... to a point. Paul could have said most of chapter 14 much more succinctly then: "If you have the ability to speak multiple languages, make a point of speaking the one that most of the local congregation can understand. If you have the ability to translate what another speaker is saying, stand up and translate it."

I see your point, but I don't agree with it.

 

[UnderGrace]

Agreed... to a point. Paul could have said most of chapter 14 much more succinctly then: "If you have the ability to speak multiple languages, make a point of speaking the one that most of the local congregation can understand. If you have the ability to translate what another speaker is saying, stand up and translate it."

I see your point, but I don't agree with it.

Too funny

Sometimes I too wonder about why he seems to make it so complicated, but I think it is because we tend to read scripture with a North American lens and Paul certainly liked to drive a point home from multiple perspectives.

 

[KelbyofGod]

When was the last time you endeavored to learn another language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger,
I don't often reply to your postings because (similar to what Dino posted earlier) you generally don't strike me as someone who is wanting to learn. Your quoted post, however, provides the opportunity to explain why on the day of Pentecost there appeared to them CLOVEN tongues, not SPLIT tongues.

Cloven means completely separated, not stemming from the same place.

If someone speaks Italian as their native tongue, that just means they were first exposed to Italian until their understanding began to deduce the rules of speaking Italian. <-- that is a NATURAL process. Once learned, they may use their learning+desire to share a message in Italian.

They may repeat this natural learning/speaking process with as many languages as they can handle, and then may use their learning+desire to convey messages with those languages as well. Again this is the learning of languages (tongues) by the natural means.

However, once the Holy Ghost arrived, people can speak new languages by SPIRITUAL means.

The tongues given on the day of Pentecost did NOT show up because the speaker(s) took the time to learn another language. They spoke "As the SPIRIT" (not their learning + desire) gave them utterance. This speech stemmed directly out of the Spirit.

That's a major difference between Spirit-given tongues and natural tongues.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby