And yet you persist in this contention that the presence of the Holy Spirit is found in utterance of tongues at water baptism. You are not consistent and that leads one to doubt your fidelity.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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For the cause of Christ
Roger
It would appear he has sounds. Anyone want to give their private interpretation?
f@667*$$!:
Yes. Now the question is to whom is this scripture referring?
The answer is surely found in the Word. One plants the seed, one waters, but God gives the increase/understanding.
Well if you think that knowledge and wisdom can come apart from understanding then the truth is self evident.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You've been watching too much of The View.
Nothing in your post relates to Wansvic's post. You just took some of the words and made slam salad out of them.
You neglect to include the beginning and the concluding verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 14. These verses must be included to properly evaluate the principles of tongues.
Paul explains what is going on when someone speaks in an unknown tongue: (1 Cor 14:1-5)
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS he interprets, so that the church may be edified. " 1 Cor 14:1-5
Verses 13 and 14 clarify that tongues is not understood unless interpreted:
"...anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:13-14
In verses 15 and 16 Paul expresses what his previous explanation pertains to; praying in the Holy Ghost (unknown tongues) versus praying with understanding:
"So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" 1 Cor 14:15-16
Oh my. You cannot comprehend that Paul is reprimanding the Corinthians for behavior that they should not engage in. Paul is saying how dumb is it when a trumpet sounds with a sound that is not that of a trumpet?
Well there is nothing I can say to persuade you to forsake this behavior. Verse 22 Tongues are a sign not for them that believe but to them that believe not.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You would have something to teach? That would be a surprise.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here are Paul's words:
7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? 8 For if the [c]bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?
The point is clear message sent. If there is no distinction in tones, it's just a sound rather than a clear message. Certain combinations of tones meant certain things to an active soldier. Your convolution is nonsensical and inconsistent with Paul's message.
Paul lists the Spiritual gifts in chapter 12 because he does not want people to be ignorant concerning the fact that they exist:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 1 Cor 12:1
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 1 Cor 12:6-7
Notice the 8th and 9th gifts in Paul's list:
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:8-10
Paul says to desire spiritual gifts and ESPECIALLY the gift of prophecy because it edifies more than just the individual UNLESS speaking in tongues is interpreted for a church's edification.
Afterward, Paul is explaining the differences between prophecy and tongues in Chapter 14:
"Follow the way of love and EAGERLY desire spiritual gifts, ESPECIALLY the gift of prophecy."
He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Sure thing. But inconsistent with the message of Paul to the Corinthians.
1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
And yet the only thing your heart desires is speak in an unknown tongue. To speak without knowledge and without understanding. Paul is not prescribing these tongues but endeavoring to correct tongues. Tongues to proclaim to Israel their Messiah has come as in Acts is one thing but tongues for the sake of tongues is quite another.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I see my view as very consistent, so as you don't, maybe you can explain. By itself, the verse you quoted doesn't support your point.
Again, you skip pertinent verses. 1 Cor 14 records Paul's explanation of the differences between prophecy and tongues:
"Follow the way of love and EAGERLY desire spiritual gifts, ESPECIALLY the gift of prophecy."
He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Paul closes chapter 14 with more than you provided in verse 19 above. He states he speaks in tongues more than all. But would rather operate in the gift of prophesy rather than tongues (if no interpreter was present).
1 Cor 14:18-20
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
YET IN CHURCH I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
You misunderstand. I am responding to your error that Paul is reprimanding individuals concerning tongues. All Paul is doing is explaining the difference between prophecy and tongues.
Prophecy being better than tongues if no interpreter is present.
The Pentecostal Road to Rome.
Ephesians 5:11
And do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even expose them.
Ephesians 5:11
And do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even expose them.
It is not wise to judge and ridicule something you don't understand.
I did not watch the videos you posted but the bible gives a clear warning to those who suggest that the operation of the Holy Ghost is a manifestation of the devil.
"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3:28-29
You assume that Paul is speaking in tongues in similar fashion to what is spoken today. I do not believe that the narrative supports that Paul spoke without knowledge of what he was saying. Paul knew several languages and spoke to different audiences is those languages when it was appropriate. The Corinthians made speaking in tongues something it was never meant to be.
In Acts we have folks getting saved and speaking in tongues with the audience comprehending what was said in their native language. What was going on in Corinth is not the same from what we can deduce from the scriptures. We do not have any record of what was said by any of these believers. I find that strange.
There is nothing in 1 Cor 12-14 that supports the fantasy that folks were speaking in a heavenly language. There is the probability that some spoke in their language and no one else present understood that language hence the need for an interpreter.
What we have today is folks getting excited about gifts for the sake of demonstrating power. Here again I do not see this a operating in love but rather personal gratification.
Your eisegesis, elaborate though it may be, does not consider the rest of scripture and the new nature Christ has given those who love Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger