If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?
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With 'churches' like that on every streetcorner, Christian men need not go far to find the nearest mission-field. I agree that it is nice to be fed as well as serving.
John 21
21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
John 21
21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
L
I have read the passage in Timothy several time and I can't refute what is there. Paul wrote it that way for a reason and he also explains his reason. It has to do with the order of creation and who was deceived. Look at the word teach as used in the Greek in this passage it seems to mean in an on going or continual way, and the word authority appears from the best definition considering context it means to "assert" authority over or literally to "obsolete a worker" who I think in this context would be a male minister. So I'm supposing that this is saying that he don't permit a woman to teach in a continual manner which I guess would be to mentor or disciple a man nor should she be in or assert authority over a qualified male worker.
That's the best I can come up with.
That's the best I can come up with.
Women tend to do almost all the most feeding and cooking in the natural but funnily enough here Jesus actually asked Peter, a man, to do it. Note that he didnt ask Martha, or Mary. And Martha was the kitchen whiz. Also when Jesus did appear to the others he had a meal with them..and who was doing the cooking?
When Eve gave adam the forbidden fruit, she was doing what she thought was right and feeding him. It should have been Adam giving Eve spiritual food.
When Eve gave adam the forbidden fruit, she was doing what she thought was right and feeding him. It should have been Adam giving Eve spiritual food.
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R
Buzzer goes off.... 1 Tim, 2 Tim, Titus...ever hear of the pastoral epistles? Also check out 1 Peter 5. The elder, bishop and shepherd are the same office. The word for shepherd is 'piomen'. This is the word from which 'pastor' is derived. If your trying to base y our argument on the absence of the English word pastor, it fails when the other words are used. If we could dismiss any doctrine because an English word is not found we could then jettison the word Rapture or Trinity.
You are really deceived! I've been reading all your nonsense about "roles' and you have swallowed the poison, hook, line and sinker!
Do you ever read your Bible in context? Look at the beginning of Genesis. The woman was created to be an ezer warrior and walk beside the man, in the battle against evil. Eve was deceived, but Paul actually blames the man for sin entering the world, in Romans 5:
"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. 15 But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!" Romans 5:12-15
Plus, Genesis 3 is very clear that roles came AFTER the Fall, not before. So, by keeping roles as your main theology, you are actually denying the change that Jesus brought through his death and resurrection, which makes us all new creatures in him (2 Cor. 5:17) and equal (Gal 3:28). You are blaspheming Jesus, his work on the cross, the power of the resurrection, and the new covenant, wanting to live by the rules God had to put in place for the Jews, to keep them pure, which failed. But, even in the OT, women were leaders and part of the community.
"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!" 2 Cor. 5:17
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
You keep harping on this topic, thinking because you read John Piper, you know it all. Well, I read John Piper too. He has some good things and some bad things to his preaching, like all preachers do. But, his dogmatic resistance to women in ministry is just not based on the Greek. And he knows Greek well, I've read some of his exegetical work. But, he is blinded by his own upbringing, and ego, that men should run things. Since the church has been run by men till now, and in fact, the church is NOT doing well, in North America, at least, probably time to go back to the Bible, instead of walking with those who do not respect the abilities and God's giftings to women.
I know ezer has been dealt with on this thread, but I will post something I wrote. Perhaps you will read it, and realize how totally and utterly wrong you are. Or, you will hang onto your pride and devotion to the law, and not allow Jesus to do his work he has called people to do - including women.
Do you ever read your Bible in context? Look at the beginning of Genesis. The woman was created to be an ezer warrior and walk beside the man, in the battle against evil. Eve was deceived, but Paul actually blames the man for sin entering the world, in Romans 5:
"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. 15 But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!" Romans 5:12-15
Plus, Genesis 3 is very clear that roles came AFTER the Fall, not before. So, by keeping roles as your main theology, you are actually denying the change that Jesus brought through his death and resurrection, which makes us all new creatures in him (2 Cor. 5:17) and equal (Gal 3:28). You are blaspheming Jesus, his work on the cross, the power of the resurrection, and the new covenant, wanting to live by the rules God had to put in place for the Jews, to keep them pure, which failed. But, even in the OT, women were leaders and part of the community.
"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!" 2 Cor. 5:17
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28
You keep harping on this topic, thinking because you read John Piper, you know it all. Well, I read John Piper too. He has some good things and some bad things to his preaching, like all preachers do. But, his dogmatic resistance to women in ministry is just not based on the Greek. And he knows Greek well, I've read some of his exegetical work. But, he is blinded by his own upbringing, and ego, that men should run things. Since the church has been run by men till now, and in fact, the church is NOT doing well, in North America, at least, probably time to go back to the Bible, instead of walking with those who do not respect the abilities and God's giftings to women.
I know ezer has been dealt with on this thread, but I will post something I wrote. Perhaps you will read it, and realize how totally and utterly wrong you are. Or, you will hang onto your pride and devotion to the law, and not allow Jesus to do his work he has called people to do - including women.
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I said I would post this about Eve, and how the roles came AFTER the Fall.
The word עזרor "ezer" often translated "helpmeet" (KJV) from the Hebrew in Gen. 2:18 - It appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Two times it is in Genesis for the woman (Gen. 2:18, 20). three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid. (Isa. 30:5, Eze. 12:14, Daniel 11:34),
And SIXTEEN TIMES for God as Israel's helper. (Exodus 18:4, Deut. 33:7, 26, 29, Psalms 20:2, 33:20, 70:5, 89:19 (translated STRENGTH) in NIV; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146:5; Hosea 13:9.
So rather than the word being translated "Helper", a better translation would be STRONG helper! Ezer is used in a military context, "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," and "Sentry watch over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because truly the Garden of Eden was a war zone. God commanded the man to keep or guard the garden by using the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a powerful enemy was already planning an attack.
God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with their brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom.
As ezer-warriors, we must be strong, resourceful, alert to the cries of the needy and oppressed. Other verses that support the ezer-warrior image, include Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman, and all believers are told to "put on the armour of God" in Eph. 6:10-17, not just the men.
Thinking of ezer as a warrior is entirely consistent with how Scripture views us. Everyone needs to be aware, that the Hebrew word in no way supports the idea of roles, based on this word used to describe Eve twice, and also for God 16 times, and 3 times for those who needed military aid.
As for roles? Genesis 3:1-7 is the record of the Fall. The God tracks down the man, and finds out what happens. In verses 15-19, he gives them the consequences of their disobedience, and roles come out of that.
"To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband,
but he will dominate you.”
17 But to Adam he said,
“Because you obeyed your wife
and ate from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
cursed is the ground thanks to you;
in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
but you will eat the grain of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”" Gen. 3:15-19
So, no roles before the Fall, roles as a consequence of sin. I know I certainly would not want to follow a pattern, that was a result of sin, as a born again Imago Dei, after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Very sad this very wrong philosophy is being taught as true, when it is not!
The word עזרor "ezer" often translated "helpmeet" (KJV) from the Hebrew in Gen. 2:18 - It appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Two times it is in Genesis for the woman (Gen. 2:18, 20). three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid. (Isa. 30:5, Eze. 12:14, Daniel 11:34),
And SIXTEEN TIMES for God as Israel's helper. (Exodus 18:4, Deut. 33:7, 26, 29, Psalms 20:2, 33:20, 70:5, 89:19 (translated STRENGTH) in NIV; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146:5; Hosea 13:9.
So rather than the word being translated "Helper", a better translation would be STRONG helper! Ezer is used in a military context, "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," and "Sentry watch over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because truly the Garden of Eden was a war zone. God commanded the man to keep or guard the garden by using the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a powerful enemy was already planning an attack.
God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with their brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom.
As ezer-warriors, we must be strong, resourceful, alert to the cries of the needy and oppressed. Other verses that support the ezer-warrior image, include Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman, and all believers are told to "put on the armour of God" in Eph. 6:10-17, not just the men.
Thinking of ezer as a warrior is entirely consistent with how Scripture views us. Everyone needs to be aware, that the Hebrew word in no way supports the idea of roles, based on this word used to describe Eve twice, and also for God 16 times, and 3 times for those who needed military aid.
As for roles? Genesis 3:1-7 is the record of the Fall. The God tracks down the man, and finds out what happens. In verses 15-19, he gives them the consequences of their disobedience, and roles come out of that.
"To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband,
but he will dominate you.”
17 But to Adam he said,
“Because you obeyed your wife
and ate from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
cursed is the ground thanks to you;
in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
but you will eat the grain of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”" Gen. 3:15-19
So, no roles before the Fall, roles as a consequence of sin. I know I certainly would not want to follow a pattern, that was a result of sin, as a born again Imago Dei, after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Very sad this very wrong philosophy is being taught as true, when it is not!
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We have access to the Tree of Life 
Those in Christ will never die, said Jesus
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26 25
Those in Christ will never die, said Jesus Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26 25
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Of course you are right. But, codifying roles which are oppressive in many circumstances, and often women are viewed as second class citizens, is a lot different than what grows out of the ground.
As Christians, we need to live like Kingdom people. That means recognizing the image of God in us all. It means not following into the trap of living like we are judged and condemned, instead of saints follow Christ.
By adhering to these old ways, basically the church is stifling over 50% of the population. We need everyone to be on mission with God, not just barefoot and pregnant. And women need to understand that this idea of women needing to marry and then be servants to their husbands, is simply wrong. God has called us to be free in him, and that means allowing women to fulfill their callings in God.
I'm not saying every woman is called to be a leader, or a missionary or a teacher. But, for those who have that gift, it is really defying God to say they cannot follow those callings and use those gifts, because of the breakdown in our relationship with God in Genesis 3, rather than our reconciliation to God in 2 Cor. 5:17.
As new creature in Christ, we are all being transformed. We don't need to follow the rules from the dawn of time, or 4000 years, or 2000 years ago.
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36.
Time to lose this male patriarchy nonsense, because there is simply not a word in the Bible that says women can't be pastors, anywhere. Roles are a result of sin! Being free to follow Christ is the joy of the cross and resurrection.
As Christians, we need to live like Kingdom people. That means recognizing the image of God in us all. It means not following into the trap of living like we are judged and condemned, instead of saints follow Christ.
By adhering to these old ways, basically the church is stifling over 50% of the population. We need everyone to be on mission with God, not just barefoot and pregnant. And women need to understand that this idea of women needing to marry and then be servants to their husbands, is simply wrong. God has called us to be free in him, and that means allowing women to fulfill their callings in God.
I'm not saying every woman is called to be a leader, or a missionary or a teacher. But, for those who have that gift, it is really defying God to say they cannot follow those callings and use those gifts, because of the breakdown in our relationship with God in Genesis 3, rather than our reconciliation to God in 2 Cor. 5:17.
As new creature in Christ, we are all being transformed. We don't need to follow the rules from the dawn of time, or 4000 years, or 2000 years ago.
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36.
Time to lose this male patriarchy nonsense, because there is simply not a word in the Bible that says women can't be pastors, anywhere. Roles are a result of sin! Being free to follow Christ is the joy of the cross and resurrection.
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