If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[Dino246]

Perhaps this anecdote will help muddy the waters a bit.
So a friend of mine was attending a church that had a woman pastor. From what I gathered she was pretty demanding concerning the work around the church. My friend had an epiphany one day when one of the other men commented that when the pastor called him up to do work and his wife answered the phone she would say your other wife called. She wasn't accusing him of a sexual or emotional affair, but perhaps a dutiful affair if you will.
I doubt that the dynamic would have been the same had the pastor been a man.
Are you groking the cut of my jib?

I think your jib was dyed blue before you bought it.

Ask any long-serving female church secretary; the situation you describe has nothing to do with gender.

 

[rubberball]

The role of music leader is found in Scripture, during the kingship of David and Solomon.

In contrast, the role of pastor is not clearly defined, and women are certainly not excluded from filling it.

1 Timothy 2:8-15, 1 Timothy 3:1-7: Ok so the Holy Spirit was wrong in using the masculine pronoun (including the Greek) for the role of pastor? A woman can be the husband of one wife? (This alone pretty much prevents women from pastoring, well up until this age) The fact that no women are found pastoring in the NT? Once again, either the Bible is our authority or its not. That's the only real question.

 

[TLC209]

Ok, I'm not all in on her, just the first example I could think of. What I'm asking is what do you think of female evangelists in general?

I believe all of us are called to evangelize. Thats genderless and ageless. We all are to spread the good news. Paul said a woman is to remain silent in church or it is a shame for her. Doesnt mean its a sin to speak in church. The woman is to wear a head covering, if she doesnt it is a shame to her the same as if her head were shaved. It is not a sin for the woman not to cover her head in church.

So its just a matter of order and submission. Doesnt mean its a sin to fall short in these ordinances. Obviously we all evangelize and brought a vistor to church at some point. Its not prohibited for a woman to evangelize to her peers coworkers family unbelieving spouse etc. That would be contrary to what Jesus told us to do. He sent the 2 women as the first ones to go tell the disciples the good news.

 

[fredoheaven]

Sorry to be so late to this thread. I am so busy writing papers in theology, etc. Here is something I wrote about the Greek meaning of "authority" in 1 Tim. 2:12

" I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

Basically, the word "authority" is translated totally wrong! Of course, how simple!

But really, the noun εξουσια (exousia) is the word the New Testament uses to translate the word authority. Eg. Matt 28:18 where Jesus has been given "all authority." Or Romans 13:1 where we are to obey the authorities, because all authority is given by God.

The word in 1 Tim. 2:12 is NOT exousia, but rather αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. This word is a hapax legomena, which appears only ONCE in the Bible. This means you cannot find the word anywhere else to compare how Paul or anyone else translated it.

In fact, you have to look at contemporaneous sources to find a definition, and there are over 50 different uses, ranging from murder and copulation to domineering. But most often it is translated “to domineer.”

So, if you translate it using that, you get, "And not to domineer a man." Sounds reasonable to me! As believers we are not to domineer over other believers! Mutual submission, like Eph. 5:20 says. And then you don't have to add that extra word "exercise" which is needed as a verb, because authority is a noun, but authentein is a verb, an infinitive. Just a small piece of grammar the translators seemed to miss!

Of course, we can get into the cultural reasons why women were not allowed to teach in Ephesus, home of the temple of Artemis, one of the 7 original wonders of the world. A cult dedicated to women, who were in charge, and also highly uneducated, like all the women of their culture. And we might add, a little wild, those women??

As for keeping silent, well, another poor translation, based on the 16th century treatment that women were less than people. Probably quiet would be a better word, and consistent with the Jewish rabbinical practice that students were to learn quietly before the Master. So actually, Paul is giving permission in this and other places for a woman to learn. In fact, I believe he encourages it.



As for 1 Cor. 14:33-34, a very simple explanation.

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. "

In fact, the only confusion comes from the fact that the punctuation is in the wrong place. "For God is not a god of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

You see, the original Greek was in majuscules, or capitals, all squished together, and no punctuation. Very easy to put a period in the wrong place if it suits your purpose. ESV is very male hierarchical (they call themselves "complementarians" but you get the idea!) and they have lovingly retained the KJV mistake. LOL!

Now the reason scholars know the punctuation is in the wrong place, is because of the last part of the passage. "As the law says". Except for in no place does it say in the law, that women should not speak, not even in the synagogue. So, Paul is likely quoting someone, and being sarcastic. I was in an Orthodox synagogue two years ago when I took Hebrew, and the women talked to each other, and to the men over the barriers separating the men from the women. They obviously had never heard of a law prohibiting women from speaking either!

So those are what are fondly known as "the two disputed passages." Of course, there are other texts, but I have been through all of them with a fine tooth comb, and none of them has any validity restricting women from ministry. Or that a man has "authority over a women" at all! There are those pesky Roman household and Greek household codes, which Paul and Peter both try to use to have people be better witnesses to the surrounding cultures, but even if you want to go with marriage roles (which I do not!) there is simply no biblical basis for any man having authority over every woman. And nothing anywhere saying a woman cannot be a pastor.

i dislike because the way you present partial truth even charging KJV has all the mistakes. You didn't even consider the pre- KJB bibles that translated the Greek word as authority. The Geneva, the Tyndale, Coverdale etc. have it. Well, your Greek majuscules is not conclusively the originals but are witnesses to the originals. i can't believe, you have been clone with the likes of Wescot and Hort Forgive me with this lady...

 

[Angela53510]

One of the reasons I ask these questions is because I see constant arguments about men leading in the church, and I'm actually not questioning that.

What I do question, however is the application: so the Bible calls for male leadership - I understand and accept that.

But if all the church can offer as leaders are men who are addicted to watching women dressed like 16-year-old cheerleaders (or whatever their fancy may be) performing sexual acts in adult movies, do I not have a right to ask God, the church, and the men who are saying they have leadership over me to please offer, train up, or find some better quality leadership?

I am not saying this in condemnation. I know it's a problem for pretty much everyone in some degree and am more than willing to try to listen, help, and pray for people who have addictions. So my first point would be that yes, I understand the Scriptures, thank you for telling me about them for the 12,000th time. However, may I ask, could you please show me some leaders who actually meet these standards, and if there aren't any, tell me what do we do next?

I was in a chat group in which the question was asked, "Is a man who is addicted to pornography qualified to lead a youth group, or a group of young men who are trying to get over porn themselves?"

If God says that I need to follow male leadership in church, I have no problem with that. Just please, give me male leaders that adhere to the passages that are always recited to me and can offer an example of what I'm told I need to follow.

One of the reasons this is important to me is because my entire life, friends, peers, and co-workers have confided in me about the sexual abuse they've suffered in their life, and I am looking for leaders in the church that I am confident are safe to talk to and could realistically help them, and it's tough to find.

Shouldn't male Christian leaders be held to the standard of sexual purity, both in body and mind? And if they are not, and no one else is to be found, what do we do next?

(I am NOT at all advocating that women should be teaching groups of all males; I personally don't believe any gender should be teaching a group that is comprised solely of the opposite gender, if nothing else, for the safety of their reputation.)

But I AM trying to present some real-life scenarios I'm finding when I look for church leadership, and am wondering what others have found and have done in the same situations.

When I took pastoral ministries in seminary, we did a whole section on pornography. Not to minister to others, but for the "men" to be wary of being trapped in porn as pastors, sitting alone in their offices, preparing sermons, with pop-up windows leading to porn.

Why spend a large amount of time on this issue? Because 50% of pastors are either addicted to porn or use it regularly. And that is every denomination!

And many denominations have set up help lines for their pastors to access, if they get pulled into this. We looked at links to the many websites designed to help people. My seminary was very good at ferreting out men that were looking at porn, probably through that course I took. One man was open in admitting he was a porn addict, but the seminary mentored him and pulled him out of it. He is a pastor in a church now, too.

Being a woman, I have no desire to look at naked guys, or whatever else they do on porn sites. I'm only attracted to my husband. I do think that since women have so much more natural self control in this area, churches should be looking to women to lead congregations. Of course, you could have accountability groups led by some of the elder men to deal with this issue. We did that in our church, and it was very helpful.

PS My husband needs to attend an "obsessed with fixing old cars" support group. I would love to see him break free of that obsession!

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Another issue is when a woman is the only one available to preach. A small church my sister attends had an older single woman pastoring the church. When she retired a married woman stepped up to take the role. My BIL left the church because she was married. I said " that makes no sense, you sat under a female pastor before". So what happens? Close down the church because there is no man to rescue it? I've traveled in so many places where the church was basically run by women. Either men weren't attending or had passed away. Should all these churches close their doors because no man is there to keep them open?? smh




(not making a point to you specifically,I know your stance on this)

Why should you close the church? Naturally women should take over in the absence of men. It is not disobedience because God allowed it before since no worthy man is around. But the ideal is men should lead.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

When I took pastoral ministries in seminary, we did a whole section on pornography. Not to minister to others, but for the "men" to be wary of being trapped in porn as pastors, sitting alone in their offices, preparing sermons, with pop-up windows leading to porn.

Why spend a large amount of time on this issue? Because 50% of pastors are either addicted to porn or use it regularly. And that is every denomination!

And many denominations have set up help lines for their pastors to access, if they get pulled into this. We looked at links to the many websites designed to help people. My seminary was very good at ferreting out men that were looking at porn, probably through that course I took. One man was open in admitting he was a porn addict, but the seminary mentored him and pulled him out of it. He is a pastor in a church now, too.

Being a woman, I have no desire to look at naked guys, or whatever else they do on porn sites. I'm only attracted to my husband. I do think that since women have so much more natural self control in this area, churches should be looking to women to lead congregations. Of course, you could have accountability groups led by some of the elder men to deal with this issue. We did that in our church, and it was very helpful.

PS My husband needs to attend an "obsessed with fixing old cars" support group. I would love to see him break free of that obsession!

While women don't have a high porn watching addiction rate, they tend to read smutt novels, and it's a lot of Christian women, which I can't say is any better except that they are at least reading.
Be happy your husband like tinkering with old cars, he could be into guns and horses, like me.

By the way if you don't mind me asking, what seminary do you attend?

 

[Angela53510]

While women don't have a high porn watching addiction rate, they tend to read smutt novels, and it's a lot of Christian women, which I can't say is any better except that they are at least reading.
Be happy your husband like tinkering with old cars, he could be into guns and horses, like me.

By the way if you don't mind me asking, what seminary do you attend?

I attended the Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary in Cochrane Alberta. I graduated in 2013. I am now working on a PhD in theology at BH Carroll.

Are you thinking of going to seminary? It was amazing!

I guess some women do read those horrible romance novels. I"m a Sci-Fi genre type of person. It used to be devoid of anything sexual. A few modern exceptions, but easy enough to close those up. My goal is to try and read things that are above high school level. That pretty much exempts all those terrible things women read. LOL

 

[Dino246]

1 Timothy 2:8-15, 1 Timothy 3:1-7: Ok so the Holy Spirit was wrong in using the masculine pronoun (including the Greek) for the role of pastor?

All I can say to that is "show the evidence". First, show us the evidence where these passages are about pastors at all. Then show us where the Greek masculine pronoun appears in either of those two passages.

A woman can be the husband of one wife? (This alone pretty much prevents women from pastoring, well up until this age)

There are several ways to interpret this, only one of which demands that only men may be considered.

The fact that no women are found pastoring in the NT? Once again, either the Bible is our authority or its not. That's the only real question.

Two issues with this: first, it's fallacious reasoning, as absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; second, how many men are named as pastors... not elders, deacons, prophets, apostles, disciples, teachers, or evangelists, but pastors? Exactly... none.

 

[oyster67]

Seoul I think using women's gifts by being support preacher and teaching future pastors is enough. The woman is not allowed to lead his husband per scripture. She should only support him. Should she lead the whole church? Leading the whole church means leading her husband also.

Yourself and Seoulsearch are influencing a lot of men and women right now, both members and guests. You both are such a blessing to all of us. This CC is offering us privileges and opportunities that are bigger than we know, I'm sure. PTL!

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I attended the Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary in Cochrane Alberta. I graduated in 2013. I am now working on a PhD in theology at BH Carroll.

Are you thinking of going to seminary? It was amazing!

I guess some women do read those horrible romance novels. I"m a Sci-Fi genre type of person. It used to be devoid of anything sexual. A few modern exceptions, but easy enough to close those up. My goal is to try and read things that are above high school level. That pretty much exempts all those terrible things women read. LOL

I have thought about it. It would help me to systemize my study. There is a lot of information and organizing it is a daunting task.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

If God only appoint women because there is no worthy man around, would it be safe to assume that if a church is lead by a woman, it only means that there is not even one worthy man in that church? That would be a very sad church then. I would not be encouraged to go to a church with unworthy men to fellowship with.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

If women has conquered the leadership in church like what happened in the world today. It only means that God has given up on men which is a very sad situation I guess. The world will not be safe for women anymore.

 

[oyster67]

If women has conquered the leadership in church like what happened in the world today. It only means that God has given up on men which is a very sad situation I guess. The world will not be safe for women anymore.

So it was in the days of Noah

 

[seoulsearch]

While women don't have a high porn watching addiction rate, they tend to read smutt novels, and it's a lot of Christian women, which I can't say is any better except that they are at least reading.
Be happy your husband like tinkering with old cars, he could be into guns and horses, like me.

Excellent point. I'm certainly not saying that women aren't immune.

As a lifelong, card-carrying nerd, I'm well aware that I can't even really pick up most fiction novels now days because everyone seems to throw in a bit of "50 Shades of Grey" (which I've neither read nor seen) so the past several years I've just avoided fiction altogether.

And I'm sure the ads and shows they have on TV now are probably 10 times more graphic than what used to be contained in all-out adult materials in the not-so-distant past. I am definitely not trying to say at all that this is an issue that affects only men.

I do get extremely frustrated though when given the instructions that I must follow the leadership of the men in the church and rely on a husband for spiritual leadership itself (seeing as I'm not married.) I don't have an issue with this command itself, but what I do want to ask back is, "When should I ask these men my questions about spiritual matters... Should I make an appointment with them BEFORE or AFTER they have their 'alone time' with their screens?"

This is one of the reasons why I'm single. Maybe it's my own character flaw but rare times I might have had a romantic interest in someone, it was someone who had an issue with porn, and it's not something I want in a marriage because I don't want to have to compete with something of that magnitude for his attention.

And when I say all of these things, it's not in mockery, criticism, or shaming. My tone of voice is actually heartfelt pleading and even sadness that says, "Ok, I'm willing to follow!!! Just show me the men who meet all these qualifications consistently and I'll be more than happy to listen to what they have to say!"

Instructing women in what they need to do and who they need to listen to is the easy part. The part that would take the real work is to actually train, raise up, and/or be the men we are told we need to follow, but there seems to be so little of that, and this, for me, is what makes these commands so discouraging.

Not any less true... It's just that no one wants to keep hearing how it "should be" and then not see anyone actually deliver the goods.

In other words, when men tell me that I need to submit to the authority of men in the church, I'm asking in my heart, "Great! Are you one of the Godly men who's here to lead women like me? Can we trust you with everything we've been through and have to offer a church family? And if you aren't one of those men, where do you suggest that I find one?"

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I believe that in each individual marriage it is the husband and wife who define their roles.

This is not true tourist. If they switch roles they are guilty of disobeying God. Adam was guilty first because he was slacking in his role as leader and he let eve do something bad. Whatever is the situation, man is guilty if he is not being accountable to his wife. When he let his wife takeover, that is slacking. Satan has made the world this way today so the husband is forced to let the wife take over.

 

[TLC209]

Excellent point. I'm certainly not saying that women aren't immune.

As a lifelong, card-carrying nerd, I'm well aware that I can't even really pick up most fiction novels now days because everyone seems to throw in a bit of "50 Shades of Grey" (which I've neither read nor seen) so the past several years I've just avoided fiction altogether.

And I'm sure the ads and shows they have on TV now are probably 10 times more graphic than what used to be contained in all-out adult materials in the not-so-distant past. I am definitely not trying to say at all that this is an issue that affects only men.

I do get extremely frustrated though when given the instructions that I must follow the leadership of the men in the church and rely on a husband for spiritual leadership itself (seeing as I'm not married.) I don't have an issue with this command itself, but what I do want to ask back is, "When should I ask these men my questions about spiritual matters... Should I make an appointment with them BEFORE or AFTER they have their 'alone time' with their screens?"

This is one of the reasons why I'm single. Maybe it's my own character flaw but rare times I might have had a romantic interest in someone, it was someone who had an issue with porn, and it's not something I want in a marriage because I don't want to have to compete with something of that magnitude for his attention.

And when I say all of these things, it's not in mockery, criticism, or shaming. My tone of voice is actually heartfelt pleading and even sadness that says, "Ok, I'm willing to follow!!! Just show me the men who meet all these qualifications consistently and I'll be more than happy to listen to what they have to say!"

Instructing women in what they need to do and who they need to listen to is the easy part. The part that would take the real work is to actually train, raise up, and/or be the men we are told we need to follow, but there seems to be so little of that, and this, for me, is what makes these commands so discouraging.

Not any less true... It's just that no one wants to keep hearing how it "should be" and then not see anyone actually deliver the goods.

In other words, when men tell me that I need to submit to the authority of men in the church, I'm asking in my heart, "Great! Are you one of the Godly men who's here to lead women like me? Can we trust you with everything we've been through and have to offer a church family? And if you aren't one of those men, where do you suggest that I find one?"

Well the role for husband and wife is different than being the leader of an entire church. The entire flock needs feeding. And that comes through the Word of God. Man cannot live by bread alone but by the Word of God. So thats the pastors role in providing Spiritual teaching.

A husband is to love his wife. Willing to give his own life for her. His body no longer belongs to himself but his wife also. And he must be sure to take care of his wife emotionally, physically, spiritually. He doesnt need to be an expert in the Word of God. Just needs to have his heart and his soul belonging to God. If the man is submitted to God and following the basic principals of Christ, he should be loving towards his spouse. And thats the leader the woman needs. She doesnt need some theologist, or greek philosopher, that would probably suck.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/should-women-become-pastors

 

[Lanolin]

Excellent point. I'm certainly not saying that women aren't immune.

As a lifelong, card-carrying nerd, I'm well aware that I can't even really pick up most fiction novels now days because everyone seems to throw in a bit of "50 Shades of Grey" (which I've neither read nor seen) so the past several years I've just avoided fiction altogether.

And I'm sure the ads and shows they have on TV now are probably 10 times more graphic than what used to be contained in all-out adult materials in the not-so-distant past. I am definitely not trying to say at all that this is an issue that affects only men.

I do get extremely frustrated though when given the instructions that I must follow the leadership of the men in the church and rely on a husband for spiritual leadership itself (seeing as I'm not married.) I don't have an issue with this command itself, but what I do want to ask back is, "When should I ask these men my questions about spiritual matters... Should I make an appointment with them BEFORE or AFTER they have their 'alone time' with their screens?"

This is one of the reasons why I'm single. Maybe it's my own character flaw but rare times I might have had a romantic interest in someone, it was someone who had an issue with porn, and it's not something I want in a marriage because I don't want to have to compete with something of that magnitude for his attention.

And when I say all of these things, it's not in mockery, criticism, or shaming. My tone of voice is actually heartfelt pleading and even sadness that says, "Ok, I'm willing to follow!!! Just show me the men who meet all these qualifications consistently and I'll be more than happy to listen to what they have to say!"

Instructing women in what they need to do and who they need to listen to is the easy part. The part that would take the real work is to actually train, raise up, and/or be the men we are told we need to follow, but there seems to be so little of that, and this, for me, is what makes these commands so discouraging.

Not any less true... It's just that no one wants to keep hearing how it "should be" and then not see anyone actually deliver the goods.

In other words, when men tell me that I need to submit to the authority of men in the church, I'm asking in my heart, "Great! Are you one of the Godly men who's here to lead women like me? Can we trust you with everything we've been through and have to offer a church family? And if you aren't one of those men, where do you suggest that I find one?"

Theres a big difference between men who are church goers and men who are actually born again spirit filled christians.

Why would you want to submit to a mere man whos a slave to Satan. Nobody in their right mind would.
Your criteria is always who is the head of this man...is it Jesus. If not then by-bye. If you already have a relationship with Jesus then you can cut out the middle-man...you dont really need a flesh husband as you've already met your eternal husband.

I suspect the lutheran schools are trying to educate people into knowing ABOUT Jesus rather than filling people with His spirit. Learned people often are just filled with mans wisdom not Gods wisdom. I mean why would you be a hearer of the word and not a doer. How can you profess you love God and then go and worship idols and look at porn.
These men are just lying to themselves and to God. Hes not fooled with people who havent repented of their sin.

 

[seoulsearch]

Theres a big difference between men who are church goers and men who are actually born again spirit filled christians.

How can you profess you love God and then go and worship idols and look at porn.
These men are just lying to themselves and to God. Hes not fooled with people who havent repented of their sin.

Unfortunately, it's a very common problem, even among the most sincere and devout. (Just read through the threads on the forum - there is always an abundance of posts from those struggling with this or have someone around them who is struggling.)

I genuinely do feel sorry for anyone struggling with an addiction and am more than happy to pray for and try to be supportive of them however I can, without enabling. Everyone struggles with something and we all need forgiveness and encouragement.

But if I am to be told about following men's leadership in the church, I need to see examples of male leaders who are consistent in living up to the 1 Timothy 3 qualifications I'm always told about (especially as a single, since I don't have a husband to present my questions to.) Of course, porn isn't mentioned specifically on this list but it goes against purity, which is what God calls for.

It is my sincere prayer that the men who tell me I need to follow men in the church would be given the strength to live up to those standards themselves.

Not that women are off the hook in any way at all... Just that if God wants men to lead, and if men insist on leading (which would be a good thing in God's eyes), may God also help the men who teach these things live up to the qualifications He has set for those who teach.