Name It and Claim It

[MadHermit]

This thread illustrates 2 equal and opposite dangers:
(1) On the one hand, "name it and claim it" theology does violence to the sovereignty and will of God and our capacity to know it with certitude.
(2) On the other hand, many who oppose this theology falsely assume that faith in the sense of a confident expectation or inner knowing is not crucial to an intercessory prayer life. Jesus teaches otherwise.

 

[wolfwint]

Okay, I understand where you're coming from now.
Jesus said, Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

None of those scriptures have been fulfilled. They are basic laws of how faith works. They have NO end, and they are not to people or nation or any time in history. They are open laws.
God's word is still life and health to all our flesh, for it is the word of God itself that does the work.
2Peter is about God fulfilling His word or promise. It doesn't matter what that promise was about, if God fulfills one promise, He will do the same for ALL His promises.
Mark 11:23-24 is also an open law of how faith works.
Verse 23 is about speaking words of faith, and verse 24 is about asking God for something you desire, believing it is already given.
Both verse are not limited to that time era, the old testament, or to the Jews only. They are open as well.
If you look at it from a micro perspective instead of a macro perspective, you might be able to see what I was talking about.
Micro, as in digging into the verses itself, rather than macro, which might be looking at who it is addressing and what era it was in.
According to my understanding, I am not perverting, twisting, adding to, or taking scripture out of context. I do not do those things.

Then if you Take the promisses which God gave Moses to you personell, then you should follow this law.
And proof what you claim. instead speaking about a theory, which nobody is able to proof.
Would you be right, we would had no reason to discuss about it.

 

[wolfwint]

You left out matt 18;18,19

Instead of finding ways to diminish verses,figure out why it appears to not be working for you.
That's the real issue.
Gods word is not working for you.

Why is it working for me and not you?

To whom Jesus spoke?
If you say this is the reality of your life, that all what you ask you for and what you Name it, came True. Then give me the proof for it.
I have expierience with prayer which the Lord answers with yes, wait und no. I have no reason to Doubt the Word of God.
I just cant find the promisses and reasons to believe what you Teach.

 

[GodsGrace101]

One thing that really bothers me is when a Christian comes up to me and says, "you haven't been healed because you lack faith".
Boy, does that get me.
After they say it they put a pert, smug smile on their face because they feel no pain and you do.
You see, we have to claim our health and wealth and everything else because God wants us to have it all in this lifetime.

There are so many holes in this belief that I no longer know where to begin.
All I can say is that God is not a field of science for us to master.
Every time we think we know it all, we find that we really don't know it all.

I was once on the other side of this.
I saw too many preachers get rich and too many people stay sick.

Today we have more name it and claim it preachers (churches by many different names) than we ever had before.
Is there really a "name it and claim it" movement anywhere that is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

I'm happy to hear you left that belief system.
For exactly the same reasons you've stated above.
It's terrible to teach that if we ask, we will be healed. Is God our butler? Is He required to do what WE ask?

Jesus prayed in the Garden...."Take this cup from me, but Your will be done..."
Luke 22:42 I think that if Jesus could accept the Father's will for such an important and heart-breaking event...then we have to be able to also.

I think that if we follow God's written commandments we WILL be better off for it; for instance, we will get sick less because we don't smoke, etc. It's the effect of believing in God that could be a source of healing for us. Maybe if we didn't know God our BP would be even higher...maybe our anxiety would be even worse...maybe we wouldn't be able to cope at all with depression or other maladies.

This doesn't mean that if someone asks for healing, it does not happen. Miracles really do happen.
Many thousands of miracles are claimed to have occurred at Lourdes in France. The CC has investigated and found 67 of them to be absolute miracles --- with no doubt.

Also, it's been scientifically proved that persons that pray heal faster than persons that do not, or persons that do not believe in God. This also has to do with the attitude we have toward illness and the effect it has on our body. Those that can accept are far better off than those who cannot.

God is not at our beck and call and to make a person believe He is could cause that person to lose their faith in God,,,or to become angry with God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Our weekly Monday prayer group often sees marvelous, even miraculous answers to our prayers. But we are forced to face the problem of spiritual presumption. So we often begin by placing the needs of supplicants in God's loving hands to deal with as He wills. Then we make it clear that a divine NO means either that the requesting healing was not in God's will or that we have failed to meet God's conditions for effective prayer (e.g by lack of faith, a lax devotional life, unconfessed sin, etc.). We discuss and worry about the danger of blaming God for occasional lack of results when we ourselves might be part of the problem.

Here is the chilling spiritual reality. There is clearly a right and a wrong way to pray. If we pray the wrong way or not at all, people suffer or die who should be healed or at least alive, if faith-empowered prayer were uttered. The only solution is to persevere in faithful attendance of a prayer group and to humble ourselves in the hope of insight into the defects in our prayer life.

Did you just say above that there's a wrong way to pray?

Could you tell me what it is so I don't do it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This thread illustrates 2 equal and opposite dangers:
(1) On the one hand, "name it and claim it" theology does violence to the sovereignty and will of God and our capacity to know it with certitude.
(2) On the other hand, many who oppose this theology falsely assume that faith in the sense of a confident expectation or inner knowing is not crucial to an intercessory prayer life. Jesus teaches otherwise.

we have the presumption and the assumption prayer clubs, but like I just posted in another thread started prior to this one, the will of God for each of us is to be transformed into the image of His Son

Romans 12

I also expressed the thought that the Bible has quite a bit to say about our words but it seems that, as you state above, one side goes out of balance with it and the other often assumes nothing of importance is covered about words in scripture

 

[tourist]

You know, it's so odd when they claim if people sow a financial "seed" into their ministry, they will get a huge "harvest" (return) from the Lord, yet those "pastors" don't give all of their money to other ministries to gain an even greater financial windfall.

That's 'cause they don't belief the crap they espouse.

 

[MadHermit]

Did you just say above that there's a wrong way to pray?

Could you tell me what it is so I don't do it.

Did you just say above that there's a wrong way to pray?

Could you tell me what it is so I don't do it.

The Bible presents several principles of effective petitionary prayer. Prayer might be sabotaged by violating those principles. But that is too big a subject for this thread. So let me offer just a few insights from lifelong experience.

(1) Recognize that small weekly prayer groups are far more spiritually effective than either prayer time during Sunday worship or prayer chains. Believers come to church on Sunday for reasons other than prayer and their focus during prayer time is often brief and mechanical. By contrast, the very act of driving to a weekly small group prayer meeting is already an act of faith! Also, the specifics included during the discussion various needs in small prayer groups makes the petitions more passionate and visceral. Your faith gains strength from the other prayer warriors present. Also, it is important to get updated information on how the beneficiary of your prayers is faring after you prayed! This information intensifies resolve and perseverance in prayer.

(2) We must avoid acting as if God is a cosmic slot machine. We just keep pulling the prayer levers until we get lucky. This attitude promotes the laundry list approach to prayer that so often makes prayer chains ineffective. We mistakenly pray as if God just needs is to express the needed information before He can intervene.

(3) The Gimme approach to prayer often fails. We are urged to renew our requests, but seldom ask why God wants us to do this. Is God reluctant to answer us, so that we need to twist His arm? No, it takes time to establish the intimate connection with God (faith!) that makes the decisive difference. Also, the gimme approach ignore the requirement that one must rekindle one's gratitude to pray effectively: "Let your requests be made known to God with thanksgiving (Philippians 4:6)."

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Bible presents several principles of effective petitionary prayer. Prayer might be sabotaged by violating those principles. But that is too big a subject for this thread. So let me offer just a few insights from lifelong experience.

(1) Recognize that small weekly prayer groups are far more spiritually effective than either prayer time during Sunday worship or prayer chains. Believers come to church on Sunday for reasons other than prayer and their focus during prayer time is often brief and mechanical. By contrast, the very act of driving to a weekly small group prayer meeting is already an act of faith! Also, the specifics included during the discussion various needs in small prayer groups makes the petitions more passionate and visceral. Your faith gains strength from the other prayer warriors present. Also, it is important to get updated information on how the beneficiary of your prayers is faring after you prayed! This information intensifies resolve and perseverance in prayer.

(2) We must avoid acting as if God is a cosmic slot machine. We just keep pulling the prayer levers until we get lucky. This attitude promotes the laundry list approach to prayer that so often makes prayer chains ineffective. We mistakenly pray as if God just needs is to express the needed information before He can intervene.

(3) The Gimme approach to prayer often fails. We are urged to renew our requests, but seldom ask why God wants us to do this. Is God reluctant to answer us, so that we need to twist His arm? No, it takes time to establish the intimate connection with God (faith!) that makes the decisive difference. Also, the gimme approach ignore the requirement that one must rekindle one's gratitude to pray effectively: "Let your requests be made known to God with thanksgiving (Philippians 4:6)."

This thread IS about prayer and why or why not it doesn't work.

Who made up the rules as to how we're supposed to pray?
Jesus gave us a sample in Mathew 6:9...

Did the person(s) who made up the prayer rules also make the rules for every TYPE of prayer or only for petitionary prayer?

P.S. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

 

[MadHermit]

One of the best ways to go deeper into the subject of prayer is to read 2 of Quaker scholar, Richard Foster's books on the subject:
(1) "The Celebration of Discipline" (rated by "Christianity Today" as one of the best 50 books of the 20th century.
(2) "Prayer" (Foster explans the 22 different types of prayer.)

I never witnessed a steady stream or miracles and other answers to prayer until we started a weekly Monday prayer group. Start or join such a group and you will see similar results. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[GodsGrace101]

One of the best ways to go deeper into the subject of prayer is to read 2 of Quaker scholar, Richard Foster's books on the subject:
(1) "The Celebration of Discipline" (rated by "Christianity Today" as one of the best 50 books of the 20th century.
(2) "Prayer" (Foster explans the 22 different types of prayer.)

I never witnessed a steady stream or miracles and other answers to prayer until we started a weekly Monday prayer group. Start or join such a group and you will see similar results. The proof is in the pudding.

I don't know if I can get these books here in English...but I'll try.
The second one is very interesting...I only know about 6 or maybe 8 types of prayer.
Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's 'cause they don't belief the crap they espouse.

Robert Tilton believed.........believed in taking the checks and cash out of the envelopes and then chunking the prayer requests with the envelopes out the back door into the dumpster........

 

[AllenW]

That's 'cause they don't belief the crap they espouse.

Kenneth Copeland once said in an interview that he does what he does because "it works" whatever that means.
I know because I watched the interview.

 

[MadHermit]

God's grace,

I urge you to get "The Celebration of Discipline" first. I particularly loved his chapter there on meditation. Many Christians dismiss meditation as an eastern or New Age practive and don't realize how centrai it is in the Psalms. No discipline of meditation = no effective prayer life. The secret is a balanced approach to the various types of prayer.

 

[AllenW]

In your testimony,you place the greatest weight and value on those non healing verses.
Your faith is there.
My faith is in the others,the promises of answered prayer that swallow your verses up.

You have what you claim by your own testimony.

You have basically named and claimed your "victory". (Small and settle for less)
Powerful stuff

You are misinterpreting to fit your belief.
That's nasty stuff.

 

[tourist]

Robert Tilton believed.........believed in taking the checks and cash out of the envelopes and then chunking the prayer requests with the envelopes out the back door into the dumpster........

I remember watching the expose on ABC on his schemes on a Thanksgiving night years ago.

 

[dcontroversal]

I remember watching the expose on ABC on his schemes on a Thanksgiving night years ago.

Me too....was like a 20/20 episode or maybe 60 minutes.....there were several of those snakes on the special....gonna be smoking hot where they are going.....

 

[cv5]

Kenneth Copeland once said in an interview that he does what he does because "it works" whatever that means.
I know because I watched the interview.

That dude is a nutter. Seems demon posessed to me.

 

[88]

We can claim anything through prayer that is biblical... Mark 11:24

 

[Guojing]

We can claim anything through prayer that is biblical... Mark 11:24

So in your opinion, is claiming health biblical?