End time signs in Amillennialism?
- Thread starter Hevosmies
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, they are going up in flames, except that they will have a resurrected body that will not burn up, but will endure the torment in flames.
"“If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
The word "torment" in the verse means to torture and that in fire and sulfur. One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience torment. That the torment is on-going is supported by the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night." Once again, one would have to be existing and aware in order to experience not having any rest from their torment day and night. This infers on-going conscious punishment.
All scriptures combined demonstrate that every human being who comes into the world will exist forever. Life and death are both states of existence:
Eternal Life = never ending life in the kingdom of God and the Joy of the Lord with immortal and glorified bodies
Death = Complete loss of well being in separation from the presence of the Lord in conscious torment in flame in the lake of fire.
There is no such thing as annihilation or nonexistence for human beings. Everyone who comes into the world exists forever in one of the two states above. All who come into the world are already on the road to condemning judgment because of sin. Those who have faith in Christ exit that road and are credited with righteousness and reconciled to God.
Jesus gave us a glimpse into the afterlife describing the event of the rich man of Lazarus fame, who when he died, his spirit departed his body and went down into Sheol/Hades where he was/is in torment in flame. And he is still there to this very day, as well as everyone else who have gone there and continue to fill Hades. All of these are those who will be resurrected, receiving a resurrection body made for their punishment. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire, where the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever, without any rest.
That's the scriptural truth of this matter.
"“If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
The word "torment" in the verse means to torture and that in fire and sulfur. One would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience torment. That the torment is on-going is supported by the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night." Once again, one would have to be existing and aware in order to experience not having any rest from their torment day and night. This infers on-going conscious punishment.
All scriptures combined demonstrate that every human being who comes into the world will exist forever. Life and death are both states of existence:
Eternal Life = never ending life in the kingdom of God and the Joy of the Lord with immortal and glorified bodies
Death = Complete loss of well being in separation from the presence of the Lord in conscious torment in flame in the lake of fire.
There is no such thing as annihilation or nonexistence for human beings. Everyone who comes into the world exists forever in one of the two states above. All who come into the world are already on the road to condemning judgment because of sin. Those who have faith in Christ exit that road and are credited with righteousness and reconciled to God.
Jesus gave us a glimpse into the afterlife describing the event of the rich man of Lazarus fame, who when he died, his spirit departed his body and went down into Sheol/Hades where he was/is in torment in flame. And he is still there to this very day, as well as everyone else who have gone there and continue to fill Hades. All of these are those who will be resurrected, receiving a resurrection body made for their punishment. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire, where the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever, without any rest.
That's the scriptural truth of this matter.
I've read your whole post brother and explained the scriptures you're repeating in the other thread at least twice.
In 2Thes.2, Paul is telling them (and us),
1) "the day of Christ" (vs.2), the day Jesus comes in person (look, look, look, ---> 2Pet.3:10)
2) that day will not come, unless there is a departure from the truth first and the antichrist is manifested in this apostasy (vs.3) look, look, look--->(1Jn.3:10)
3) Satan manifested in the flesh. (vs.4)
4) Paul told them before. (vs.5)
5) Satan must oppose God in this world (vs.6)
6) he always has and will, until the ministry of Christ on earth, salvation offered to sinners ends (vs.7)
7) then, antichrist will be seen by all without his cover and so will Jesus as God Almighty. No evil is going to survive this encounter.
In 2Thes.2, Paul is telling them (and us),
1) "the day of Christ" (vs.2), the day Jesus comes in person (look, look, look, ---> 2Pet.3:10)
2) that day will not come, unless there is a departure from the truth first and the antichrist is manifested in this apostasy (vs.3) look, look, look--->(1Jn.3:10)
3) Satan manifested in the flesh. (vs.4)
4) Paul told them before. (vs.5)
5) Satan must oppose God in this world (vs.6)
6) he always has and will, until the ministry of Christ on earth, salvation offered to sinners ends (vs.7)
7) then, antichrist will be seen by all without his cover and so will Jesus as God Almighty. No evil is going to survive this encounter.
Hmm dont quite agree with that but ok.
You say the Lord will descend and gather his church....to where? What are they going to do for 7 years.
What is the 7 year agreement with.
Why does israel have to complete a temple and sacrifices. Didnt Jesus destroy the old temple and raise up a new one (His body? ) .
Werent the first fruits from the first time, why does God need to gather his church wouldnt that be the first fruits, if hes gathering them FIRST. Why is he waiting for israel in the LAST seven years shouldnt he be gathering them FIRST?
You say the Lord will descend and gather his church....to where? What are they going to do for 7 years.
What is the 7 year agreement with.
Why does israel have to complete a temple and sacrifices. Didnt Jesus destroy the old temple and raise up a new one (His body? ) .
Werent the first fruits from the first time, why does God need to gather his church wouldnt that be the first fruits, if hes gathering them FIRST. Why is he waiting for israel in the LAST seven years shouldnt he be gathering them FIRST?
Hey Journeyman could you give us a timetable or an ORDER OF EVENTS you believe will happen? kind of like Ahwatukee did, in this manner:
* We are here
*X happens
* Y happens
* Jesus returns
please, please, please?
* We are here
*X happens
* Y happens
* Jesus returns
please, please, please?
I would say its not past or future but describes another Christ as another kind of teacher other than the Holy Spirit, that teaches laws as commandments of men as oral tradition of men seen making the teachings of the Holy Spirt without effect And therefore not a tradition of God not seen. Who ever places himself or sit or stand in the holy place of Christ as the authority of God not seen is an antichrist.
There were many antichrists already here as there are today.
Popes would be one who fits the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 as a "daysman" antichrist. Any government that calls themselves Christian that teaches a person needs a man seen to teach them, sit or stand in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. In that sense we are the temple of God having the Spirit of Christ in us and not of us.
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.2 Thessalonians 2:4,
There were many antichrists already here as there are today.
Popes would be one who fits the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 as a "daysman" antichrist. Any government that calls themselves Christian that teaches a person needs a man seen to teach them, sit or stand in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. In that sense we are the temple of God having the Spirit of Christ in us and not of us.
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.2 Thessalonians 2:4,
The kingdom of God is not of this world. It does not and has never come by observation .(walking by sight) as after the things seen.
Christians I believe are to look at the things seen in order to give us the unseen understanding hid in parables.(2 Corinthians 4:18) . Those parables are literally historically true but again hide the spiritual understanding from those who do not have the Spirit of Christ in them. Giving us two levels of understanding that come along side one another, as a parable the witness of God.
The true Holy place of God is the unseen place. The place of faith. Reserved for our unseen father in heaven. God remains without form.
The temple on earth has always been a copy of the unseen. When the first century reformation had come the temple that was used as a shadow lost its usefulness when the veil was rent.
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount
Christians I believe are to look at the things seen in order to give us the unseen understanding hid in parables.(2 Corinthians 4:18) . Those parables are literally historically true but again hide the spiritual understanding from those who do not have the Spirit of Christ in them. Giving us two levels of understanding that come along side one another, as a parable the witness of God.
The true Holy place of God is the unseen place. The place of faith. Reserved for our unseen father in heaven. God remains without form.
The temple on earth has always been a copy of the unseen. When the first century reformation had come the temple that was used as a shadow lost its usefulness when the veil was rent.
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount
I would agree its not a salvation issue that does despite to the grace of Christ.. But more of how do we hear what Christ says to the churches (denominations) as kingdoms of this world? Having not yet become the kingdom of God in the new incorruptible order.
What does the scriptures teach us as to how we can hear Him aright and therefore rightfully divide all things written in the law and the [prophets .Its there (how can we rightfully divide seeking after his promise approval. This is where the rubber hits the road
Christ is coming as he did in the time of Noah like a thief in the night. Buying selling, marrying as usual will be occurring when on the last day the day of salvation and the day the second death is thrown into the lake of fire as one work in the twinkling of the eye he will come and the kingdom will become his . Six times in John the Holy Spirit uses the phrase "last day" to represent the end of the world and the beginning of the new.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world "are become" the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
What does the scriptures teach us as to how we can hear Him aright and therefore rightfully divide all things written in the law and the [prophets .Its there (how can we rightfully divide seeking after his promise approval. This is where the rubber hits the road
Christ is coming as he did in the time of Noah like a thief in the night. Buying selling, marrying as usual will be occurring when on the last day the day of salvation and the day the second death is thrown into the lake of fire as one work in the twinkling of the eye he will come and the kingdom will become his . Six times in John the Holy Spirit uses the phrase "last day" to represent the end of the world and the beginning of the new.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world "are become" the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
I would offer. As long as we live in these bodies of death we are suffering the "wrath of God" as those who. do fall short of the glory of God.
The antichrist is here working in the hearts of those who believe not the gospel. The wrath of God is being revealed just as the antichrists (many) The wrath will be revealed. When he comes on the last day he will not be revealing His wrath but carrying out His will .
Some are waiting for him the antichrist to appear as well as so sort of special wrath and a special of idea of the church as the bride of Christ .Dividing the Jew and the gentile as one bride in order to affect some sort of idea that the church goes missing for half of the signified language of Revelation .
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them .Romans 1:18-19
The antichrist is here working in the hearts of those who believe not the gospel. The wrath of God is being revealed just as the antichrists (many) The wrath will be revealed. When he comes on the last day he will not be revealing His wrath but carrying out His will .
Some are waiting for him the antichrist to appear as well as so sort of special wrath and a special of idea of the church as the bride of Christ .Dividing the Jew and the gentile as one bride in order to affect some sort of idea that the church goes missing for half of the signified language of Revelation .
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them .Romans 1:18-19
Hey Journeyman could you give us a timetable or an ORDER OF EVENTS you believe will happen? kind of like Ahwatukee did, in this manner:
* We are here
*X happens
* Y happens
* Jesus returns
please, please, please?
* We are here
*X happens
* Y happens
* Jesus returns
please, please, please?
We are here: We put our faith in Jesus.
X happens: We experience persecution, because of our faith in Jesus. We experience this at the hands of those who have departed from the truth (apostasy). "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil (antichrist) 1Jn.3:10
Y happens: God continues his work in us, his ministry of mercy to the ungodly,
"to be conformed to the image of his Son" (Rom.8:29), to show love to those who hate us, by Christ in us. And once this ministry ends, once "he is taken out of the way", once salvation by faith is no longer available,
Jesus returns: as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2Pet.3:10).....In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2Thes.1:8).....Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him (Ps.50:3).....
-
2
- Show all
Yes. Were being conformed to the image of our Creator,
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. Jn.15:20
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jn.1:10
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jn.3:1
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1Jn.4:17
And this is way of the Lord throughout history, ---> But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal.4:29
And this will continue until Jesus's work, making us into his image has ended.
it ends at the 2nd resurrection, the bodily resurrection, when all reap, what they sowed.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor.15:25
I'll finish the rest tomorrow, Lord willing.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. Jn.15:20
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jn.1:10
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1Jn.3:1
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1Jn.4:17
And this is way of the Lord throughout history, ---> But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal.4:29
And this will continue until Jesus's work, making us into his image has ended.
it ends at the 2nd resurrection, the bodily resurrection, when all reap, what they sowed.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor.15:25
I'll finish the rest tomorrow, Lord willing.
Scripture doesn't give the exact coordinates, but states that the dead in Christ will rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies. Then we who remain and are still alive, will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then taking John 14:1-3 into consideration, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where He is, we may be also.
Well, for one, believers who are caught up will appear before the Bema seat of Christ to be judged for things done in the body for Christ, which will result in rewards or loss of rewards - 2 Cor.5:10. Then we will attend the wedding feast of the Lamb, where the bride/church will receive her fine linen, white and clean - Rev.19:6-8. After that, the church/bride will follow Christ our of heaven riding on white horses while wearing her fine linen - Rev.19:14. I'm sure there will be other events that are just not mentioned.
The 7 year agreement is that last seven years of the seventy seven years that was decreed upon Israel and their holy city, Jerusalem. Since this has not yet been fulfilled and God cannot lie, then it is yet to take place. We know that the 7 year agreement is with Israel, because the prophecy is regarding Israel.
Don't confuse the literal temple in Jerusalem with the temple of our bodies in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The context will determine what is being referred to. That said, since the antichrist will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and the abomination is said to be set up in the holy place, then the context is obviously speaking about a literal building temple opposed to the temple of our bodies.
Because, God's wrath must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and therefore, the church must be removed before God's wrath takes place, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. And that Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. So, the Lord will gather His church prior to the on-set of His wrath.
That is the church, not the nation Israel. Two different dispensations/programs. The woman of Rev.12 is representing unbelieving Israel, i.e. they have not acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah. The 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, are those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. These are the first fruits out of Israel. God has unfinished business and prophesies to fulfill with Israel, which will be fulfilled during that last seven years.
When Jesus gathers the church, it will be those who trusted in Him and were watching for His appearing, which is our blessed hope. How can the Lord Jesus gather Israel when they have not believed in Him as their Messiah? The nation Israel has remained under the law of Moses till this very day, still waiting for the Lord's first appearing and God will take up where He left off with Israel during that last seven years. Here is what scripture has to say about Israel and their lack of belief:
"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,"
Well, for one, believers who are caught up will appear before the Bema seat of Christ to be judged for things done in the body for Christ, which will result in rewards or loss of rewards - 2 Cor.5:10. Then we will attend the wedding feast of the Lamb, where the bride/church will receive her fine linen, white and clean - Rev.19:6-8. After that, the church/bride will follow Christ our of heaven riding on white horses while wearing her fine linen - Rev.19:14. I'm sure there will be other events that are just not mentioned.
The 7 year agreement is that last seven years of the seventy seven years that was decreed upon Israel and their holy city, Jerusalem. Since this has not yet been fulfilled and God cannot lie, then it is yet to take place. We know that the 7 year agreement is with Israel, because the prophecy is regarding Israel.
Don't confuse the literal temple in Jerusalem with the temple of our bodies in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The context will determine what is being referred to. That said, since the antichrist will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and the abomination is said to be set up in the holy place, then the context is obviously speaking about a literal building temple opposed to the temple of our bodies.
Because, God's wrath must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and therefore, the church must be removed before God's wrath takes place, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. And that Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. So, the Lord will gather His church prior to the on-set of His wrath.
That is the church, not the nation Israel. Two different dispensations/programs. The woman of Rev.12 is representing unbelieving Israel, i.e. they have not acknowledged Jesus as their Messiah. The 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, are those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. These are the first fruits out of Israel. God has unfinished business and prophesies to fulfill with Israel, which will be fulfilled during that last seven years.
When Jesus gathers the church, it will be those who trusted in Him and were watching for His appearing, which is our blessed hope. How can the Lord Jesus gather Israel when they have not believed in Him as their Messiah? The nation Israel has remained under the law of Moses till this very day, still waiting for the Lord's first appearing and God will take up where He left off with Israel during that last seven years. Here is what scripture has to say about Israel and their lack of belief:
"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,"
Ok but you havent explained Jesus avenging the saints that were matryed or when the gentiles have all come in. Also that corinthians passage youve quoted seems a bit out of context with what youve outlined.
Look at 1 corinthinans 15:23-25
It does say the order. Then comes the end And that Christ delivers up the kingdom when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign till he hath out all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
You seem to have conflated this to mean christs kingdom has already been delivered up. But scripture states its only ends (the end of the world) at his coming. Then he reigns. His coming meaning when Jesus returns...for the dead rising first and any alive and remaining. Because otherwise why would Jesus return if to set up his kingdom if the dead didnt rise at his coming? To say those who died in christ are already in the kingdom is a bit disingenous as we arent all in yet. He wants us to all be im together, not just when we lived on earth but for eternity. Right?
Sorry am rather confused by your statements.
Look at 1 corinthinans 15:23-25
It does say the order. Then comes the end And that Christ delivers up the kingdom when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign till he hath out all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
You seem to have conflated this to mean christs kingdom has already been delivered up. But scripture states its only ends (the end of the world) at his coming. Then he reigns. His coming meaning when Jesus returns...for the dead rising first and any alive and remaining. Because otherwise why would Jesus return if to set up his kingdom if the dead didnt rise at his coming? To say those who died in christ are already in the kingdom is a bit disingenous as we arent all in yet. He wants us to all be im together, not just when we lived on earth but for eternity. Right?
Sorry am rather confused by your statements.
