End time signs in Amillennialism?

[garee]

Oh ok so you are of the belief that 144,000 is not a literal number as well. Ok interesting. I didnt think it was symbolic, but then this is only first fruits of Israel...there are tens of thousnads, thousands of thousands of other saints who come in who are not from those tribes...but tribes from every tongue and nation, without number...funny the book of revelation gives specific numbers for the tribes of Israel though.

Tribes that represent gates used as the description of the bride of Christ the church the spiritual house of God made up of many lively stones (144,000) like Apostles as walls that represent the same bride of Christ. are both used in respect to the metaphoric word twelve. Twelve represent the authority of God as the whole. Twelve is used many times in parables

Both Dan and Judas are missing, set aside for a certain purpose in the prescription in the book of Revelation.

The tribe of Dan missing to represent those under the judgment of God .And the Judas the false apostle missing to represent the same .Those who fall backward in judgment as metaphor for a unbeliever. Those having no faith that comes from believing God who works in those who do believe.

God does not give exact numbers or time or those who walk by sight are quick to become one of the number comparing themselves to themselves and not comparing the spiritual things not seen to the spiritual .Rather that walking by faith the unseen, hidden from natural man that are quick to become the number as a self confirmation or self edifying the works of the flesh that provide the false pride of this life.

I heard the Mormons place certain people elders into the category of 144,000 but ran into a difficulty having fulfilled that number prematurely long ago . It became "recalculating" please turn right in 1 mile.

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

The bride of Christ as to the city prepared as the wife of Christ. is reckoned as a hundred and forty and four cubits (144) , according to the measure of a man that is of the angel who uses the metaphorical measure thousand or thousands. 144, 000 The bride of Christ pictured in Revelation 12.

And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. Revelation 21;17

 

[garee]

Since the Amils do not believe in a literal Millennium, they probably ignore everything as in Scripture and make up their own narrative (which says the Millennium is right now, and has been around for more that a thousand years.

The Amil believe the Millennium as a metaphor used in a parable is right now. We are in the last days that began literally two thousands years ago. They believe the Israel in view are the believers spread around the word .They do not try and make the earthly Jerusalem the Holy place. That place of faith is reserved for our unseen father in heaven .

Ten Kingdoms with ten be used like the thousand used as a unknow or concealed represent all the kingdoms of this word or all the denominations that follow all things written in the law and the prophets . The father of lies the spirit of the antichrists (singular) Satan will be working in the heart of men as antichrists many who reject the faith that comes from hearing God and rather walk after the experiences of this world

.Jesus called them the evil generation that must walk by sight. Having no faith that comes from hearing God through His living abiding word which cannot return void.

 

[garee]

Gareee when those graves were opened did you count all the OT saints listed in the Bible and did they add up to 12,000 from each tribe. Just wondering.

No only the born again ones that did have the Spirit of Christ in them. God does not number his saints. Could of been ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; He would not leave one of his sheep that follow his voice behind .One, ten hundred is like a thousand, a metaphorical word.

Tribes are used to represent gates by which we enter into fellowship with God not see . The word twelve thousand represents a unknow or concealed amount. The Kingdom of priest as Ambassadors for Christ from a foreign land are not of this world we have the privilege to seek out the spiritual understanding hid in parables .But that does not mean God must reveal exact numbers where it has to do with time or persons. .

I would think it is enough of a honor that he calls us kings and does reveal somethings hid in parable. if we try to force a parable to give us a literal understanding much will remain lost or concealed.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Journeyman]

Ok...then can you explain gog and magog? Who are they?
Doesnt Paul say all of Israel will be saved...because God had promised them. As far as I can tell they arent all saved yet. For you, your POV suggests the same kind of thinking as 'replacement theology' ...is it?

Gog and Magog is the devils army, the dead. God's people have always been believers.

 

[Jimbone]

Thanks for your question.

I believe God's kingdom already CAME. I believe in the 'ALREADY, not yet' model.

Meaning: Jesus and John the Baptist said the kingdom of God is at hand, repent.

The kingdom came at PENTECOST i believe.

Yet it will completely CONSUME the worldly kingdoms we have today, ONCE Jesus returns.

do you agree? Sorry if my answer sounds like a political one, but its not! Here is an article on it: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/is-the-kingdom-present-or-future

Yes I agree until the "once He returns". I believe He is seated at the right hand of the Father right now today, until ALL enemies are being made a footstool for His feet. I believe that if He was to bring His kingdom with Himself on the clouds like many suggest, that would be an earthly kingdom we could point to and say "there it is". Jesus told us His kingdom was NOT like that and was in our midst.

Luke 17:20-21
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

If He was bringing it in the way the pre-tribbers describe, this would have to be wrong, Jesus would have to have been wrong here if He was bringing His kingdom for every eye to see in this way, as many believe.

I believe "The kingdom came at PENTECOST", as well, but I believe that the judgement described in Revelation already happen when He removed His temple and everything else in the world He used to establish and to point to the coming Messiah, I believe history even provides amazing evidence of these things, not indisputable evidence or any kind of absolute proof. What I do believe is, the kingdom that you believe came at Pentecost will know no end, I believe Isaiah 2-2 "In the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it."

As well as the parables Jesus taught describing His kingdom, like the mustard seed, and like the leaven permeating the whole loaf, I believe that's where we are now, in the time that everything is being put under Him.

At this point it's only fair to admit that, while I have given this a fair amount of study, and truly feel this view fit's the scripture better than any other option I've hear so far, I haven't sat down and studied every rabbit trail, or answered every detail like exactly who the man of sin was, or what day which Caesar desecrated the temple, and to be honest do not feel drawn too at this point. I honestly focus my time on other things like actually going out to evangelize and make disciples (as well as trying to improve as one). I just want to learn, to grow closer to our reigning King.

I also think it worth pointing out I did not believe this, or anything close to this, when He first saved me, and I imagine as He teaches me more, opens my eyes even further, and draws me closer I will continue to evolve my understanding and views more into truth and His image. The absolute last way I want to be, or come across, is like I have it all figured out. This is just the understanding He has given me up to this point, and it has set a blaze in my spirit that just seems to burn hotter day by day. Even in my own personal trials I just want Him, thank Him for everything He blesses me with, and trust Him and His word more everyday. It's crazy.

I understand why people think this view is stupid, the world does seem to be getting worse and worse. I just don't believe that true anymore. While our sins are much more visible because of the communication capabilities, man has always been just as wicked, it's just exposed more now, which I would like to add is a GOOD thing, and a major improvement over a time when we would never know about the warlord in Zimbabwean that just slaughtered a whole tribe just to take what they had. Man has always been just as wicked, we just saw it less before. Now we have multiple 24/7 news station beaming the bad news into your eyes nonstop.

One of the main things I have come to see is the overall outlook our view on end times can promote.
I have heard people that believe the world is just going to hell in a hand basket say things like "why would I bring a child into a world that's just getting worse and worse". I also think it zooms in on the overall picture to the point that personal salvation is made the "main point" of Gods work through Jesus. I couldn't disagree more. While our salvation should be the most precious thing to the Christian, and is an believable miracle that changes mans heart, it is not the "finish line", or even the most amazing thing we learn (which I hope is super exciting and encouraging to others), it's is just the very beginning of Him using us to build His kingdom for the ultimate redemption of ALL creation. That was the work He came and DID. When you believe that Jesus is the King right NOW, and that His power IS changing the world right now, that He holds ALL authority in heaven and on EARTH now, this view makes a difference in how one approaches everything.

Okay I am going to try to wrap it all up and end with a very important point (to me anyway). First, I do not think this issue should divide the brothers in anyway, if you are trying to save as many as possible before everything goes belly up, then praise God for you, if you're just trying to kingdom build and to fulfill the purpose that He created you for while it's all being put under Him, praise God for you too. I just love God and all His people, period. He has put me under a pastor that believes like most here, and I love and trust God, and I "know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

I'll leave with this, God has never taken the righteous off the earth and left the world to the wicked, any and every time Gods judgement has fallen on man, the wicked were removed and the righteous inherent the earth. I find that an interesting thing to ponder when thinking on this subject. Why would God change the way He has always done it for this one event?

Thank you so much for the conversation, sorry it took so long to respond, and I pray you have a great day and God draw you and your whole family ever closer every day.

 

[garee]

Yes I agree until the "once He returns". I believe He is seated at the right hand of the Father right now today, until ALL enemies are being made a footstool for His feet. I believe that if He was to bring His kingdom with Himself on the clouds like many suggest, that would be an earthly kingdom we could point to and say "there it is". Jesus told us His kingdom was NOT like that and was in our midst.

I would agree the kingdoms of this world are under the rule of the god of this world (1 John 2:16 ) . So why would we literally look for a fleshly God as if God was a man as us?

The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of God when he brings the incorruptible . Corruption does not inherit the incorruptible. The new (not reconditioned or rebuilt )will not be made up of the corrupted rudiments of this world to include flesh and blood .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

What we will be as the bride of Christ know ones knows. We do know there will be no darkness no night,. For the hidden glory of God called the holy place of place of faith will be the light. The need of the Sun and the moon the two times keepers will be under the feet of the new bride.

God is not a man as us. He clothed him self temporally with flesh in order to provide a promised demonstration of the invisible work of pouring out His Spirit of n flesh .But God has no beginning or end of Spirit life. Even though some did know him that way .He inform us we know him that way no more forever more. We continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal and not after the flesh as that seen the temporal (no fleshly Jesus whom his own self said the flesh profits for zero )

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Rev 16:2 "festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

You have to have both the mark of the beast AND worship its image.

For your future prediction to come true people will have to have a Chip Implanted in them AND worship the image of the Implanted Chip. But I don't see the worship part mentioned in your prediction.

I am already marked with a social security number. In many ways I cannot get a job or a credit card, buy or sell a home... unless I divulge and wear my social security number. Am I doomed? No, because I do not worship the image of the social security number or what it represents.

It matters not whether you are circumcised or uncircumised. Marked or unmarked.
What matters is whether or not your heart remains circumicised or uncircumised. Marked or unmarked.


Therefore, the Mark of the Beast and it's Image that is worshipped may already be hear.

Today's use of Technology and Algorithms alerted me 20 years ago. It's when I slowly began seeing how we could implant, track, have common knowledge (finances-medical history-etc) that later I recognized in what the RFID Chip Implant was actually designed for...the possible...Mark of the Beast - Number.

And we know scripture states the Beast run this system, that meant the Beast was the system. And the system that controls the RFID Chip Implant, the software design, the Quantum Tech P.C. will be the Beast that runs the one world government, market, medical, military, banking, power to do anything at all. That Implant will be your credit/bank card, your medical insurance scanning card, your drivers license scan (most all vehicles now come equip with a system that can shut your car down while you are in it taking over 100% control - we will need id's to drive vehicles), this Implant will obviously have a scanner and tracking device.

It's how the Adversary plans to control the world into one mind set, while leading them into Battle against God, to literally be slaughtered like helpless incapacitated animals. All for the purpose of stealing those souls, just to be alongside of them suffering for all eternity.

He deserves his END!!

 

[garee]

Rev 16:2 "festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

You have to have both the mark of the beast AND worship its image.

For your future prediction to come true people will have to have a Chip Implanted in them AND worship the image of the Implanted Chip. But I don't see the worship part mentioned in your prediction.

I am already marked with a social security number. In many ways I cannot get a job or a credit card, buy or sell a home... unless I divulge and wear my social security number. Am I doomed? No, because I do not worship the image of the social security number or what it represents.

It matters not whether you are circumcised or uncircumised. Marked or unmarked.
What matters is whether or not your heart remains circumicised or uncircumised. Marked or unmarked.


Therefore, the Mark of the Beast and it's Image that is worshipped may already be hear.

I would agree technology the new author of prophecy to word of one not seen as another gospel, another Christ as the teaching Master. . Making the faith that alone comes from hearing God through the word of God without effect.

What's the next new prophecy? Heat signatures detectable by orbiting satellites? I would think we would buy the spiritual truths of God and not sell them as we are informed in a parable in Proverbs.(Proverbs 23:23 ) . They could sell us out to another authority like that in the garden .Did God say? Or with Esau and Jacob. Esau sold his spiritual birthright as first born for a cup of soup. seeing no profit in serving a God not seen. Esau received not rest coming from God like that of Cain a restless wanderer .

The mark of the beast of the field, formed from the dust "666" is the number of a natural man formed from the dust of the field as un-converted man (not born again) He is the self image or what some call free will that some worship. Cain a marked man was the first mentioned in the Bible .He was given a punishment he could not bear... a living hell with no rest coming from the work of God's sabbath..

 

[Lanolin]

Yes but the incorrptable will be seen wont it because 'every eye will see'. If its incorruptible it will never die, just as Thomas could touch Jesus hands and feet to know he was there and it wasnt just people saying or believing so. Jesus returning in the clouds in his glorified body, will not be invisible. Because we will be raised from the dead too. Or if we happen to be alove and remaining, be changed eith the twinkling of an eye.

I think people confuse the giving of the holy spirit with Jesus return? He gives us the deposit, and sure we glortify him with the holy spirit dwelling in us, but our lives are lived by faith while we are yet still in the flesh...our flesh has to die an then we will be born again. Arent we groaning for anticipation of the new creation? Its not actually here yet otherwise you and I will be living in our heavenly glorified bodies. We are still in theprocess ofbeing perfected and sanctified.

Seeing Jesus FACE TO FACE and not just spiriutally because we just cant see him in person right now. We could touch Him and shake hands and eat with Him when he returns. See 1 thessalonians 4:16-17 and it does mention CLOUDS.

I see the amills dont really have an adequate explanation for gog and magog, even the twelves aposltes arent even literally twelve men just symoblic of something else. I just dont agree with that kind of interpetation trying to explain away everything. Sorry, but its interesting reading different pov about it. But a bit sad that amills dont really believe in Jesus reign being literal on earth where we get to reign with him and see him in person. They just miss out. Maybe they just dont believe God could do it?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes but the incorrptable will be seen wont it because 'every eye will see'. If its incorruptible it will never die, just as Thomas could touch Jesus hands and feet to know he was there and it wasnt just people saying or believing so. Jesus returning in the clouds in his glorified body, will not be invisible. Because we will be raised from the dead too. Or if we happen to be alove and remaining, be changed eith the twinkling of an eye.

I think people confuse the giving of the holy spirit with Jesus return? He gives us the deposit, and sure we glortify him with the holy spirit dwelling in us, but our lives are lived by faith while we are yet still in the flesh...our flesh has to die an then we will be born again. Arent we groaning for anticipation of the new creation? Its not actually here yet otherwise you and I will be living in our heavenly glorified bodies. We are still in theprocess ofbeing perfected and sanctified.

Seeing Jesus FACE TO FACE and not just spiriutally because we just cant see him in person right now. We could touch Him and shake hands and eat with Him when he returns. See 1 thessalonians 4:16-17 and it does mention CLOUDS.

I see the amills dont really have an adequate explanation for gog and magog, even the twelves aposltes arent even literally twelve men just symoblic of something else. I just dont agree with that kind of interpetation trying to explain away everything. Sorry, but its interesting reading different pov about it. But a bit sad that amills dont really believe in Jesus reign being literal on earth where we get to reign with him and see him in person. They just miss out. Maybe they just dont believe God could do it?

The Amills have to allegorize/spiritualize scripture in order to support their belief, such as reading the words "a thousand years" which is mentioned six times throughout Rev.20:1-7. yet, they don't believe what their reading and that because false teachers have told them that the thousand years isn't a literal thousand years and they have unfortunately adopted that teaching.

Preterists have to do the same thing regarding their belief that most end-time events have already taken place, such as Jesus' return. For example: Jesus, when referring to His return to end the age said, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." They allegorize this by stating that Jesus returned in the form of Titus and the Roman legions when they destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. Talk about grasping at straws! Revelation 1:7 even echo's this prophecy stating that, "Look, He's coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. So they opt to ignore the literal meaning for a convoluted interpretation and thereby distorting scripture.

It reminds me of the convoluted interpretation of the SDA as well, where they take the mark of the beast and interpret it as meaning to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. They do this by interpreting the right hand where the mark will go as figuratively meaning "to preform action." And the forehead as meaning "taking thought," i.e. to make a decision, hence, acting on the decision to observe the Sabbath on Sunday. You'd think that if the day on which a person observes the Sabbath was so detrimental to salvation, that it would be mentioned in the book of Revelation. However, it is not even mentioned once. You'd also think that it would have been mentioned within the letters to the churches, yet, it is nowhere to be found.

Now that is real deception when you can get people to reject the literal meaning of scripture and replace it with a vague allegorical meaning. Satan is obviously very good at it and these people who have bought into it are his foot soldiers.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes I agree until the "once He returns". I believe He is seated at the right hand of the Father right now today, until ALL enemies are being made a footstool for His feet.

When Jesus said to the Pharisees,

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. Mk.12:36

What was he showing them?

 

[Nehemiah6]

When Jesus said to the Pharisees, "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool." Mk.12:36 What was he showing them?

Christ was showing them MANY things in that one verse.

1.That David had prophesied about His eternal Kingdom around 1,000 BC.

2. That God the Father (the LORD) addressed Christ (my Lord) prophetically even before He came to this earth, and even before He gave those words to David.

3. That God already saw the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and exaltation of Christ long before He came to this earth, and already saw Him seated at His right hand after His ascension.

4. That Christ would not establish His literal Kingdom on earth at His first coming (which was as the Lamb of God), but only after His Second Coming (as the Lion of the tribe of Judah).

5. That Christ would sit at the right hand of the Father between His exaltation and His Second Coming, which would be the Church Age.

6. That Christ would destroy all His enemies at His Second Coming, and finally establish His Kingdom on earth, first during the Millennium, and after that for eternity.

The Jews were fully aware that Messiah-King would literally establish His Kingdom on earth. But they simply could not see Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah-King. Also, the apostles asked Christ just prior to His ascension if He would restore the kingdom of Israel at that time. They simply did not know that the Church Age would intervene until Christ came back to earth "with power and great glory".

 

[Journeyman]

Christ was showing them MANY things in that one verse.

1.That David had prophesied about His eternal Kingdom around 1,000 BC.

2. That God the Father (the LORD) addressed Christ (my Lord) prophetically even before He came to this earth, and even before He gave those words to David.

3. That God already saw the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and exaltation of Christ long before He came to this earth, and already saw Him seated at His right hand after His ascension.

4. That Christ would not establish His literal Kingdom on earth at His first coming (which was as the Lamb of God), but only after His Second Coming (as the Lion of the tribe of Judah).

5. That Christ would sit at the right hand of the Father between His exaltation and His Second Coming, which would be the Church Age.

6. That Christ would destroy all His enemies at His Second Coming, and finally establish His Kingdom on earth, first during the Millennium, and after that for eternity.

The Jews were fully aware that Messiah-King would literally establish His Kingdom on earth. But they simply could not see Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah-King. Also, the apostles asked Christ just prior to His ascension if He would restore the kingdom of Israel at that time. They simply did not know that the Church Age would intervene until Christ came back to earth "with power and great glory".

Lets try it this way. When Jesus said,

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Jn.8:56

What was Jesus showing them?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Lets try it this way. When Jesus said,

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Jn.8:56

What was Jesus showing them?

Forgive me Nehemiah for chiming in. What is means is that, Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My (Jesus) day and he saw it and was glad." The Jews then said, "you are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham. And Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am. At this the Jews picked up stones to stone Him because Jesus used the title that He gave to Moses from the burning bush. Moses said, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

Jesus used the title "I AM" that he had given to Moses from the burning bush and thereby claiming himself to be God and existing before Abraham.

 

[Journeyman]

Forgive me Nehemiah for chiming in. What is means is that, Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My (Jesus) day and he saw it and was glad." The Jews then said, "you are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham. And Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am. At this the Jews picked up stones to stone Him because Jesus used the title that He gave to Moses from the burning bush. Moses said, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

Jesus used the title "I AM" that he had given to Moses from the burning bush and thereby claiming himself to be God and existing before Abraham.

Yes brother that's right, so the correct interpretation is, from the second Jesus was born into this world and always before and ever after, his enemies are his foot stool.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool Isa.66:1

It's just that we weren't always aware of this.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor.15:25

So what this really means is, "reign until his patience on the unrepentant ends", until the last person who will be saved comes to faith. Afterward, the unsaved learn the earth has always been his foot stool when we all see him as he truly is, God Almighty the Son.

 

[Jimbone]

Yes but the incorrptable will be seen wont it because 'every eye will see'. If its incorruptible it will never die, just as Thomas could touch Jesus hands and feet to know he was there and it wasnt just people saying or believing so. Jesus returning in the clouds in his glorified body, will not be invisible. Because we will be raised from the dead too. Or if we happen to be alove and remaining, be changed eith the twinkling of an eye.

I think people confuse the giving of the holy spirit with Jesus return? He gives us the deposit, and sure we glortify him with the holy spirit dwelling in us, but our lives are lived by faith while we are yet still in the flesh...our flesh has to die an then we will be born again. Arent we groaning for anticipation of the new creation? Its not actually here yet otherwise you and I will be living in our heavenly glorified bodies. We are still in theprocess ofbeing perfected and sanctified.

Seeing Jesus FACE TO FACE and not just spiriutally because we just cant see him in person right now. We could touch Him and shake hands and eat with Him when he returns. See 1 thessalonians 4:16-17 and it does mention CLOUDS.

I see the amills dont really have an adequate explanation for gog and magog, even the twelves aposltes arent even literally twelve men just symoblic of something else. I just dont agree with that kind of interpetation trying to explain away everything. Sorry, but its interesting reading different pov about it. But a bit sad that amills dont really believe in Jesus reign being literal on earth where we get to reign with him and see him in person. They just miss out. Maybe they just dont believe God could do it?

I just want to start with a "thank you", because this particular issue is something I haven't really thought about, and your comment had me pulling out my bible to read about. Regardless if we agree or not, that's an awesome thing and I thank you.

I understand what you're saying, but I have to honestly reject being labeled "amill", because that leads you think this describes everything I believe, and it just doesn't. I have to say again that while I have of course read and listened to many teachings on this, I myself can't say I've really dug in to get to the bottom of every detail, if that's even possible anyway, besides the fact I am much more interested in evangelism anyway. From the read through I just did I believe the war of Gog & Magog is yet to happen, I believe that Jesus is reigning from His throne at the Fathers right hand now, and also that those from the first resurrection are with Him now, including those that die in Him now. I believe Satan being released from His prison to deceive the nations is to come (possibly now), and when they surround the camp of the saints and beloved city, fire will come down from heaven and consumes them, and the devil is thrown into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet.

I mean this is what it says when I read it, but I am not teaching here, I'm learning. So I really just wanted to address these couple things the apparently you think I support (only say that because you were responding to me) when it's so far off that it serves as a GREAT example of why I reject the label you're trying to pin me with. I also DO believe the apostles were literal men, and as far as Jesus reigning on the NEW Earth and Jerusalem, I think that happens after these things, and after the Great White Throne Judgement. Again that's just what it says, in that order. Again I think this fits scripture better than any other option I've heard, but I'll never be done listening to others and trying to learn and grow. That is why I want to thank you one last time before I go for the conversation, I guess He's telling me it's time I honestly take a deeper look at all this, so thank you for having me pull out His word and search the scriptures for myself to see if these things are true. (again it's not like I haven't at all, I just haven't dug into this deep enough really)

I hope you have a great day man, and I also would like to add I do appreciate your comments all the time, and really see eye to eye with you on most everything I've read of yours, so I'm NOT at all trying to teach here, and hope you feel like I'm just discussing with a brother because that's how I see you.

 

[Jimbone]

Yes brother that's right, so the correct interpretation is, from the second Jesus was born into this world and always before and ever after, his enemies are his foot stool.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool Isa.66:1

It's just that we weren't always aware of this.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor.15:25

So what this really means is, "reign until his patience on the unrepentant ends", until the last person who will be saved comes to faith. Afterward, the unsaved learn the earth has always been his foot stool when we all see him as he truly is, God Almighty the Son.

Wow that is some "excellent" Eisegesis, because I don't read anywhere this means what you're saying it does. Where in the world does scripture say in 1 Cor 15:25 means, "reign until his patience on the unrepentant ends". That is ALL just from you, and not only that, you seem to be suggesting that God gets mad at us, like there is only so much He can take. You're applying human emotions to a God that has had everything set from the beginning, has He not?

My main point is, we can't do that to scripture. I say that 1 Cor 15:25 means "that Jesus will ascend to the right hand of the Father, and reign until He has made ALL enemies a footstool for His feet", the only difference here is I'm actually pulling this from scripture not adding it as you did there.

That said, if it really does say somewhere that God is just taking the worlds sin until He just can't bare it anymore, then please share and I will apologize and have some serious rethinking to do, because I don't know a God that works on human emotion. I know He's long suffering, but that's not the same thing as being patient until He's "tired" of it.

I hope I don't come off too "mean" or "aggressive", that's not at all my intention, this just caught my attention and I wanted to address it. Again I could be wrong and am so open to hearing how you came to the conclusion you did. Thanks and have a great day.

 

[garee]

Lets try it this way. When Jesus said,

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Jn.8:56

What was Jesus showing them?

The last day the day of the lord. Judgment day for the unbeliever. New spirit life in the new promised incorruptible body, all in the twinkling of the eye

 

[Jimbone]

When Jesus said to the Pharisees,

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. Mk.12:36

What was he showing them?

He was showing them that there was distinction between the Father and the Son. "The Lord said to my Lord", do you not see this?

Do you think Jesus is SEATED at His right hand now? The bible says He is-

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Mark 16:19
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat(as in He DID sit already, not "will one day") down at the right hand of God.

Luke 22:67-69
67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe, 68 and if I ask you, you will not answer. 69 But from NOW on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” From when?

Then when people point at others and say " have to allegorize/spiritualize scripture in order to support their belief" yet take

Mark 1:15
15“The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

Matthew 3:2
2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

In this one Jesus is telling them to say the kingdom is "at hand".
Matthew 10:7
"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Luke 4:43
But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

Matthew 3:1-2
Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Okay I truly don't know what you do with these few that are VERY specific, Are there people from then still walking around?

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1
And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Luke 9:27
"But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Luke 11:20
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Luke 17:20-21
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Again this goes against EVERYTHING those still waiting for an earthly kingdom to point to in the future, it also in no way lines up with the descriptions of the kingdom Jesus gave us.

Have any of you looking for the kingdom to come later ever looked up what the writers meant by "at hand"? It's does NOT mean the distant future, period. How do you reconcile ALL these passages that say this with WAY LATER??? Then accuse others of warping the text to fit.

Lets continue with Jesus descriptions to see what view they fit best.

Mark 4:30-32
And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST UNDER ITS SHADE."

To trees grow instantly? like they just ride on a cloud and pop up, nope this doesn't fit with and instant kingdom brought on the clouds. What about-

Luke 13:20-21
And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened."

Again not a "instant" kind of thing, something that works it's self throughout.

So you guys, and not you so much than others here, I'm just using your comment to reply to, like to point your finger and stick your nose up as if we are totally retarded to believe what we do and " allegorize/spiritualize scripture", yet what do you do with this half the bible? I just don't understand how someone can point their finger at someone else when having that view in the face of ALL these.

I don't know, again this isn't even on the list of most important issues in my opinion, but to some it seems the hill to live or die on. The body needs all it's parts to be useful at all though.

 

[Lanolin]

Jesus was saying the kingdom in your midst cos he was right there with them on earth.
He was there in person.

Some of those disciples who became apostles actually did see the kingdom eg John was giving revelation of it, and Peter did see Jesus transfigured. Yet the kingdom isnt established on earth yet because everyone isnt in yet. When Jesus returns all the saints that have died in christ are coming with Him and we are all going to be together.

It cant be a kingdom if some people dont recognise Jesus as King. For a kingdom to be a kingdom EVERY subject needs to recognise Jesus as King.

Otherwise its just an independent republic. Now I dont know about you but on earth we still have other kings and leaders and presidents and prime ministers and not all of them recognise the King of Kings and they arent subject to him.

This is why those tht believe in Jesus right now on earth are part of His kingdom spiriutally but its not fully realised because theres still unbelievers. This is why Jesus needs to return so every eye can see him and recognise Him.

Does that make sense? And those outside the kingdom, the unbelieving, are outside, they cant enter in. Their time is short because they dont repent they cant be part of it. When the kingdom of heaven comes the boundaries are clearly laid out in book of revelation, the city gates etc are measured and so long, so high and so wide. Its all very concrete. In fact the foundations are gold, and all precious stones.