Not By Works

[mailmandan]

No I do not want baised doctrines, but there is nothing wrong with reputable English translations. Heres the KJV:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Sounds good to me. Do you be;lieve you have a better understanding than those who translated the KJV from greek to English?

Time of temptation "peirasmos" here in Luke 8:13 is not the same as time of testing "dokimion" of your faith in James 1:3. It's not about whether or not I have a better understanding than the KJV translators. The fact remains that "peirasmos" (Luke 8:13) and "dokimion" (James 1:3) are two different Greek words with two different meanings which have been translated into English.

In regards to Luke 8:13, not all belief is the same (shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief) as I already explained in post #85,359. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4268#post-3850629

 

[unclesilas]

As I mentioned before, the KJV and the NASB translate the Greek word "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 as temptation. Strong's #3986: peirasmos (pronounced pi-ras-mos') from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation.

Included in the Thayer's Lexicon - 1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances.
1b2) an internal temptation to sin.
1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand. - https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3986/peirasmos.htm

The Greek word for "testing" in James 1:3 is "dokimion" (different Greek word).

Strongs #1383
Original Word: δοκίμιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dokimion
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im'-ee-on)
Definition: a testing
Usage: a test, trial, what is genuine.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1383 dokímion (a neuter noun) what is found approved (genuine) after testing, focusing on the inevitable results of this. - https://biblehub.com/greek/1383.htm

OK, so you understand the greek, and have read much of concordances. I have done neither, so I guess you have a huge advantage over me. So I will put some scripture up and I would like you to explain to me exactly when Paul is referring to in his life, with a full explanation of verse eight and a general exegesis of the passage, thanks. I feel sure the KJV will be acceptable to you:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.


11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom7:7-11

 

[unclesilas]

Time of temptation "peirasmos" here in Luke 8:13 is not the same as time of testing "dokimion" of your faith in James 1:3. It's not about whether or not I have a better understanding than the KJV translators. The fact remains that "peirasmos" (Luke 8:13) and "dokimion" (James 1:3) are two different Greek words with two different meanings which have been translated into English.

In regards to Luke 8:13, not all belief is the same (shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief) as I already explained in post #85,359. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4268#post-3850629

So is the kjv is in error to simply state they believed for a while? So should we throw the KJV out as unreliable in your view?
Or, should no one read it unless they have a greek NT handy? Or possibly a concordance such as strongs?

Or possibly, a person could just get down on their knees in humility and pray they will be enlightened by reading a reputable English translation, and fully trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth concerning what they read. Which would achieve better results in your view?

 

[mailmandan]

OK, so you understand the greek, and have read much of concordances. I have done neither, so I guess you have a huge advantage over me.

It's not rocket science.

So I will put some scripture up and I would like you to explain to me exactly when Paul is referring to in his life, with a full explanation of verse eight and a general exegesis of the passage, thanks. I feel sure the KJV will be acceptable to you:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom7:7-11

What is your point here and what does this have to do with our discussion of temptation "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13?

 

[unclesilas]

It's not rocket science.

What is your point here and what does this have to do with our discussion of temptation "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13?

I want to see if your understanding of the greek, and reading concordances has helped you understand a core point of Paul's message.

 

[Goodnewsman]

final salvation is not guaranteed by an initial experience of saving faith and grace, this is clearly shown in Rom. 13:11, where we read, "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

Believing brings temporal salvation. Continuing to believe insures final salvation.

In I Pet. 1:5, 9, and 13, the writer speaks of a salvation which is not a present possession of
believers here and now:

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time... Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls . . .
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be
brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Paul speaks of his labors to insure the continuance of his numerous charges:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with Eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: if we
suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (II Tim. 2:10-12).

Final salvation, "the end of your faith" (I Per. 1:9), is "when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (I Pet. 5:4).

The promises of final salvation are to the overcomer:

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his
name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Rev.
3:5).

if anyone might have presumed that his present salvation inevitably guaranteed his final salvation, it would have been the Apostle Paul.

But notice what Paul said I Cor. 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." adokimos

Those of you who teach false security must have difficulty with this verse!

Please notice that Paul uses the very same word here translated "castaway" (adokimos) Rom. 1:28, where it is translated "reprobate"; adokimos

II Cor. 13:5, "Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates"; adokimos


II Tim. 3:8, where he speaks of false prophets as "men of corrupt
minds, reprobate concerning the faith"; adokimos

Titus 1:16, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"? adokimos

In each case the word denotes those who are lost.

I know it is convenient to ignore the otherwise accepted usage of a word, and blithely say it means much less. But at least I can say that I tried

 

[mailmandan]

So is the kjv is in error to simply state they believed for a while?

I don't believe the KJV is in error here, but what you don't seem to understand is that not all belief is the same. For example, the Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is found in James 2:19 - ..the demons believe "pisteuo" that there is one God.. YET THEY ARE NOT SAVED. The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is also found in Acts 16:31 - Believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. So depending on the context, "believe" may be referring to saving belief in Christ or it may fall short of firmly rooted consummated belief in Jesus, resulting in salvation, as we see in Luke 8:13.

So should we throw the KJV out as unreliable in your view? Or, should no one read it unless they have a greek NT handy? Or possibly a concordance such as strongs?

I never said throw out the KJV and all English translations were translated from Greek, which can give you a deeper understanding of words if you understand the origin of those words. For example, in English translations, we have one word for LOVE, yet in Greek, we have Agape, Storge, Phileo from which the English word LOVE is translated from.

Or possibly, a person could just get down on their knees in humility and pray they will be enlightened by reading a reputable English translation, and fully trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth concerning what they read. Which would achieve better results in your view?

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) yet biased church doctrine can get in the way of hearing and accepting the truth from the Holy Spirit.

 

[unclesilas]

I don't believe the KJV is in error here, but what you don't seem to understand is that not all belief is the same. For example, the Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is found in James 2:19 - ..the demons believe "pisteuo" that there is one God.. YET THEY ARE NOT SAVED. The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is also found in Acts 16:31 - Believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. So depending on the context, "believe" may be referring to saving belief in Christ or it may fall short of firmly rooted consummated belief in Jesus, resulting in salvation, as we see in Luke 8:13.

I never said throw out the KJV and all English translations were translated from Greek, which can give you a deeper understanding of words if you understand the origin of those words. For example, in English translations, we have one word for LOVE, yet in Greek, we have Agape, Storge, Phileo from which the English word LOVE is translated from.

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) yet biased church doctrine can get in the way of hearing and accepting the truth from the Holy Spirit.

 

[unclesilas]

I don't believe the KJV is in error here, but what you don't seem to understand is that not all belief is the same. For example, the Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is found in James 2:19 - ..the demons believe "pisteuo" that there is one God.. YET THEY ARE NOT SAVED. The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is also found in Acts 16:31 - Believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. So depending on the context, "believe" may be referring to saving belief in Christ or it may fall short of firmly rooted consummated belief in Jesus, resulting in salvation, as we see in Luke 8:13.

I never said throw out the KJV and all English translations were translated from Greek, which can give you a deeper understanding of words if you understand the origin of those words. For example, in English translations, we have one word for LOVE, yet in Greek, we have Agape, Storge, Phileo from which the English word LOVE is translated from.

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) yet biased church doctrine can get in the way of hearing and accepting the truth from the Holy Spirit.

You get deeper understanding by relying more and more on the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth concerning the message, not by seeking a deeper understanding of words through concordances and the greek.
The kjv says they believed for a while then fell away. It is quite obvious what it means, but as it does not fit in with your doctrine you will go anywhere that is needed in order to explain away what is plainly stated

 

[mailmandan]

You get deeper understanding by relying more and more on the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth concerning the message, not by seeking a deeper understanding of words through concordances and the greek.
The kjv says they believed for a while then fell away. It is quite obvious what it means, but as it does not fit in with your doctrine you will go anywhere that is needed in order to explain away what is plainly stated

I already thoroughly explained the deeper understanding to you, which I came to understand from relying on the Holy Spirit, which was also confirmed through concordances and the Greek. Your biased doctrine is blinding you from getting a deeper understanding and I find your comment, "does not fit in with your doctrine" to be IRONIC.

 

[unclesilas]

I already thoroughly explained the deeper understanding to you, which I came to understand from relying on the Holy Spirit, which was also confirmed through concordances and the Greek. Your biased doctrine is blinding you from getting a deeper understanding and I find your comment, "does not fit in with your doctrine" to be IRONIC.

Well if you are right we would have to throw out the KJV wouldn't we, one of the most reputable bible translations written, for at best it would be extremely misleading.
I mean, ''they believed for a while then fell away'' Its quite obvious how 99% of people would interpret that, and it supports you can lose your salvation. So I guess we don't have any English translations we can rely on do we, we had better all learn greek!!

Anyway, I will wait for your exegesis, as requested concerning Rom7:7-11

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we would be lost....just like the rest of those "lost" end up in hell

Jesus said the prodigal son was dead, and lost (Luke 15:24, 32).

notice even Jesus said this son was "lost"

is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?

James says, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" (5:19-20)

some on here have said "Once born, one can never be unborn." but the logical contradictory of birth is not unbirth, but death.

A child may die. "Adam . . . was the son of God" (Luke 3:38), yet God said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). Of course, false security was offered, even in the Garden, for the serpent assured the woman, "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen. 3:4).

1. He was still a son, he still had his fathers blood, so legally and naturally and physically, in any court of law, he was his fathers son,
2. Yes he was lost, and yes he was dead, i was dead for 5 years, and i was lost and wandering, i was also continually chastened by god, if i commited certain sins, i was still confronted with guilt and shame, i could hear god calling me, i just resisted because of what happened. Which proved i was still a son, (maybe you did not experience this? )
3. It is why the son returned, and it is why I eventually fell on my pride and came back, in fact, after it happened, i saw how god worked to do what he promised he would do, he left the flock and came and found me and brought me back (the circumstances can not be explained any other way (again, maybe you did not experience that? )
4, please. From now on, do not say you are not trying to save yourself, you just admitted a person has to of his own power not walk away, not continue to stay away, or bring hmself back. Ie, he had to save himself or he would “lose” his salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In all fairness.....it is the the same word

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.


"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of

John 3: 16, whoever believes has eternal life
James 2 Even demons believe
Same greek word

Just saying....

 

[dcontroversal]

Nope I do not have to get it because that is not what scripture teaches.

When you go to court and the Judge has made a decree that you are innocent of all charges, the debt is paid in full and you are set free (regenerated/redeemed) then tell me how my belief changes the Judges decree?

Are you proposing the the judge overturns his verdict, based on our ongoing belief on what he has decreed?

How does one take back a debt that has been paid in full?

That seems rather silly, since when does the defendant who has been exonerated get to over turn the judges decree?

You know we have a will and we have choice. Perhaps I have a will to be in debt again but in reality I do not have that choice.

AMEN and just like human courts but with a "way higher" application.....there is NO double jeopardy with GOD.........once the blood has been applied by grace through faith we are declared LEGALLY innocent and the righteousness of CHRIST is applied by faith...God is clear....when I see the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU.....end of story!

God dose not deal in temporary life....Whatsoever GOD does, it is EVERLASTING and he does this so men man fear before HIM <---Ecclesiastes

 

[unclesilas]

Your biased doctrine is blinding you from getting a deeper understanding .

I await your full exegesis as requested of rom7:7-11, your deeper understanding of it

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen and Amen

I hereby declare DCon a National Treasure!!!


a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

The truth is the truth.......and the bible is replete and full of the above examples........God's kingdom will have every gambit of believer in it...from Christ who rules it all a KING, LORD and GOD who was 100% faithful as a MAN with NO SIN---and--->all the way down to the weakest, most base man that was saved so as by fire with NOTHING to show but saving faith.....

Those that are faithful over a few things will be made ruler over MUCH.........!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It depends on the translation, some say firm, some say no but they all say in Himself.

You got me thinking so i had to look it up.

He word root is a word which means in effect, origin or source, to render firm (probably where firm comes in) to establish to cause a person the be grounded

This word is preceded by the greek negative participle “ouk” meaning that these things have not occurred,

Ie, they had no root, no source or origin, they were never established,

I do not know how else you can say they were never saved, God saves us, we do not root ourselves, god establishes us in firm gound, he is the source or origin of our salvation, he is the one who grounds us in soil so we can not be moved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What about those who stop believing with no root? like luke 8:13

They werent eternally saved!

Perhaps they had a dead faith with no repentance!

I see people like this all the time, they come and they seem excited, even say they believe, then all of a sudden they disappear and want nothing to do with the church or god. Church did not fill their need, they were looking for an escape, and since they were never really saved, they never found it. So when trouble came, they ran

 

[dcontroversal]

John 3: 16, whoever believes has eternal life
James 2 Even demons believe
Same greek word

Just saying....

Context dictates other wise....and labano is a completed action....to receive to oneself is not the same as believe..........and to be honest I cannot believe that came out of your mouth because you know FULL WELL that the comparison is between mere belief IN God and actual SAVING faith into CHRIST........and NO....it is not the same word....same root, but different word and different application.....I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT MAN.....to TRY and disprove a valid point I made

John 3:16 Believes

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. <--pisteuousinbelieve [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ

The context is -->THE DEVILS believe that --->GOD IS ONE or ONE GOD

4771 [e]σὺ
syYouPPro-N2S4100 [e]πιστεύεις
pisteueisbelieveV-PIA-2S3754 [e]ὅτι
hotithatConj1520 [e]εἷς
heisoneAdj-NMS1510 [e]ἐστιν
estinisV-PIA-3S3588 [e]ὁ
ho-Art-NMS2316 [e]Θεός;
TheosGod.N-NMS2573 [e]καλῶς
kalōsWellAdv4160 [e]ποιεῖς·
poieisyou are doing!V-PIA-2S2532 [e]καὶ
kaiEvenConj3588 [e]τὰ
tatheArt-NNP1140 [e]δαιμόνια
daimoniademonsN-NNP4100 [e]πιστεύουσιν
pisteuousinbelieve [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ
kaiandConj5425 [e]φρίσσουσιν.
phrissousinshudder!V-PIA-3P

JOHN ---->pisteuó: to believe, entrust

JAMES, DEVILS--->pisteuousin believe [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ

 

[mailmandan]

Well if you are right we would have to throw out the KJV wouldn't we, one of the most reputable bible translations written, for at best it would be extremely misleading.
I mean, ''they believed for a while then fell away'' Its quite obvious how 99% of people would interpret that, and it supports you can lose your salvation. So I guess we don't have any English translations we can rely on do we, we had better all learn greek!!

Who said anything about throwing out the KJV? "they believed for a while then fell away" is not the problem. The depth of what was believed was the problem. In contrast with the "good ground hearer/4th soil," the heart of the shallow ground hearer was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who believe in a shallow way and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

I see that you completely ignored the facts that I presented to you in regards to the word believe "pisteuo" in post #85,687. A casual reading of Luke 8:13 would probably cause many people (who also ignore the facts) to believe a loss of salvation was being discussed. I've heard numerous works-salvationists over the years (including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) cite Luke 8:13 as a proof text of losing salvation. Red flag.

*BTW, you still have not shown me the specific words "lose or lost salvation" in scripture. A casual reading of James 2:24 "justified by works" has resulted in many people interpreting this verse to mean we are "saved by works" in contradiction to numerous passages of scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). This is why it's absolutely critical to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Anyway, I will wait for your exegesis, as requested concerning Rom7:7-11

You can keep waiting. You can't even get past Luke 8:13.