Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

How can you believe for a while, stop believing, FALL AWAY and be saved? (If we're talking about luke 8:13)

Oy vey!

This one begs for an explanation! 3 of 4 soils saved?

The bible speaks in numerous places of the children of God....and their level of maturity, fruit bearing, works etc......

a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

I cite the Corinthian church as case example one.......it had ALL three of the above in it and some 15 errors

Thomas walked with JESUS for three years and had DOUBT and DID Not believe he was resurrected
Peter walked with JESUS three years and walked on water and was told WHEN you are CONVERTED strengthen the brethern and denied the Lord three times
David was after the mind an heart of God yet committed adultery, murder and numbered the military
Abraham was deceptive about his wife to save his own skin
Moses got drunk after the flood

Proof of growth and maturity...

Abraham.....Believed God and left his home country...HOW many years before he was "whacked" and how many years later was he mature enough to OFFER ISAAC on the ALTAR.........

MOSES took 80 years of preparation before he was chosen to LEAD the children of ISRAEL........

THE BIG ONE.....THE 70 that were rejoicing that they had the ability to cast out DEMONS....JESUS said....DO not rejoice in this.....REJOICE that YOUR NAMES are written IN HEAVEN....

TELL me...WHAT did they DO when they heard a difficult message about eating the flesh of JESUS and drinking his BLOOD........THEY got OFFENDED and walked away.....YET JESUS had said their NAMES were written in HEAVEN......NO where does it say they lost their salvation.........NO WHERE

 

[Macabeus]

Of course there's a difference. But, the scriptures uses pictures to make points, like trees. I'm not an expert by any means but I would ask if certain fruits take longer to be produced.

Do you know about crabapple trees? They are sour, but I liked them. Takes a lot of salt though to eat them.

It doesn't matter which type of fruit I'm talking about or your talking about. DC excludes them all for everyone except matured Christians

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4211#post-3846459,

Go to post 84,217

So what.......you have still proved nothing except in your mind.......and I will say it again.....

1. A person can be saved for years without bearing fruit....<--the bible and nature teaches this truth
2. At what point does one stop being a son by birth...NEVER
3. Works are the result of the gift of faith and salvation....<----a period of growth and maturity is required before one bears anything

,

DO you see the gross error here ?

 

[dcontroversal]

sure. but in luke 8:13 they stopped believing, iow: faith wasnt finished. it says that in all translations, believed for a while, but not till the end.

perhaps no repentance was the issue. = dead faith = no salvation to begin with

Sorry I do not believe that.....the RECEIVED it with JOY.......the same word used in BOTH verses...

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.


"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of

NO ROOT = NO GROWTH...........BUT THE SEED was sprouted

 

[stonesoffire]

This scripture came to me.

The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

6 Then Jesus told them this parable: "A man had a fig tree that had been planted in his vineyard. He went to look for fruit on it but didn't find any.

7 So he told the gardener, 'Look here! For three years I have been coming to look for fruit on this tree but haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it waste the soil?'

8 But the gardener replied, 'Sir, leave it alone for one more year, until I dig around it and fertilize it.

9 Maybe next year it'll bear fruit. If not, then cut it down.'"

Saved as by fire?

Another type of fruit..

11 A woman was there who had a spirit that had disabled her for eighteen years. She was hunched over and completely unable to stand up straight.

12 When Jesus saw her, he called to her and said, "Woman, you are free from your illness."

Luke 13:13 Then he placed his hands on her, and immediately she stood up straight and began praising God.

 

[dcontroversal]

This scripture came to me.

The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

6 Then Jesus told them this parable: "A man had a fig tree that had been planted in his vineyard. He went to look for fruit on it but didn't find any.

7 So he told the gardener, 'Look here! For three years I have been coming to look for fruit on this tree but haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it waste the soil?'

8 But the gardener replied, 'Sir, leave it alone for one more year, until I dig around it and fertilize it.

9 Maybe next year it'll bear fruit. If not, then cut it down.'"

Saved as by fire?

Another type of fruit..

11 A woman was there who had a spirit that had disabled her for eighteen years. She was hunched over and completely unable to stand up straight.

12 When Jesus saw her, he called to her and said, "Woman, you are free from your illness."

Luke 13:13 Then he placed his hands on her, and immediately she stood up straight and began praising God.

You know...the bible points to the physical creation and clearly states that DAY unto day and night unto night sets forth knowledge........

JESUS on NUMEROUS occasions pointed to creation to make spiritual points....the hairs on your head, sparrows falling to the ground, discerning a red sky, the waves of the sea, fish, sun, moon, sky etc.......and I have yet to find one plant, tree, bush that bears immediately....EVEN JESUS said a kernel of wheat must die, fall to the ground, be reborn and then before it produces it MUST GROW and mature.........I do not understand why so many people are making a big deal about this and or trying to say that I am saying something wrong............PETER even covers the 7 that we are to ADD TO OUR FAITH SO AS TO NOT BE BARREN............

I am done arguing this BIBLICAL proven point..........

 

[Macabeus]

Of course there's a difference. But, the scriptures uses pictures to make points, like trees. I'm not an expert by any means but I would ask if certain fruits take longer to be produced.

Do you know about crabapple trees? They are sour, but I liked them. Takes a lot of salt though to eat them.

Oh, btw, thanks fot affirming that eternally grateful Changed the words

 

[dcontroversal]

It doesn't matter which type of fruit I'm talking about or your talking about. DC excludes them all for everyone except matured Christians

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4211#post-3846459,

Go to post 84,217



DO you see the gross error here ?

Yep, your rejection of truth........and your dishonesty with the facts.....keep trying though...the more you are dishonest...the more people can see your true character..

 

[Macabeus]

So a Christian can produce NOTHING until after a period of growth and maturity

OOookkkaaayyyy

 

[DOHERETICSFORFEITHEAVEN]

Yep, your rejection of truth........and your dishonesty with the facts.....keep trying though...the more you are dishonest...the more people can see your true character..

Yep, your rejection of truth........and your dishonesty with the facts.....keep trying though...the more you are dishonest...the more people can see your true character..

Do you believe heretics go to hell?

 

[Argueless]

In all fairness.....it is the the same word

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.


"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of

...But not all the Israelites ACCEPTED the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has BELIEVED our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is HEARD THROUGH THE WORDS OF CHRIST. Romans 10:16-17

If FAITH ALONE saves, those of rocky soil heard and received and therefore were saved.

If they were saved but did not bear fruit because they have no root and fell away when trials came, will they remain saved?

Did the bible say that no one who has FAITH can lose their FAITH?...that they cannot be deceived? Will those who will be deceived still remain saved?

...At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED...For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles TO DECEIVE even the elect—if that were possible. Matthew 24:10-13 & 24

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

According to OSAS "Faith ALONE saves". If faith is lost by being deceived and turning away or abandoning that faith, do you still remain saved?

 

[UnderGrace]

It depends on the translation, some say firm, some say no but they all say in Himself.

Tis true, but which is the correct one......let me see what I can dig up...the cat sure is busy these days.

 

[UnderGrace]

@UnderGrace by our behaviour.

Him in our hearts should reflect in our behavior, though, right? . I mean it is one sure way to discern and examine our walk with Him. Our thoughts, actions, words, even feelings should line up with the will of Him. But of course, that is where He and His Grace comes in.[/QUOTE]


Of course, the difference is between "will" and "should"

Your assurance of salvation must always be first and foremost on the objective, His promises in His word and then we are to examine ourselves.

If we are working at being good we have fallen out of grace, back to self-effort.....we need to abide in Him and let Him be the source like the Living Waters He tells us that He is

Amen and Amen......God is a Gracious, God He is our supply.

One drink is a perpetual fountain.....read for yourself.

John 4:13-14
Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”


How great is that..... understanding God's pure grace is what unlocks scripture not legalism and the thou wilts and thou must or else thou aren't truly really saved.

 

[UnderGrace]

And you still don't get it do you. Its not a matter of how many sins you commit its the fact you stop believing.
let me say it once more. Stop believing and you have no saviour from sin, you lose your righteousness/justification in God's sight. For you only have one righteousness/justification in God's sight: Faith in Christ. Its written all over the new testement. I see dcontroversial gave your post a thumbs up, that shows he is as lost as you are in understanding the most basic fact in the Christian faith

Nope I do not have to get it because that is not what scripture teaches.

When you go to court and the Judge has made a decree that you are innocent of all charges, the debt is paid in full and you are set free (regenerated/redeemed) then tell me how my belief changes the Judges decree?

Are you proposing the the judge overturns his verdict, based on our ongoing belief on what he has decreed?

How does one take back a debt that has been paid in full?

That seems rather silly, since when does the defendant who has been exonerated get to over turn the judges decree?

You know we have a will and we have choice. Perhaps I have a will to be in debt again but in reality I do not have that choice.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen and Amen

I hereby declare DCon a National Treasure!!!


a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

The bible speaks in numerous places of the children of God....and their level of maturity, fruit bearing, works etc......

a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

I cite the Corinthian church as case example one.......it had ALL three of the above in it and some 15 errors

Thomas walked with JESUS for three years and had DOUBT and DID Not believe he was resurrected
Peter walked with JESUS three years and walked on water and was told WHEN you are CONVERTED strengthen the brethern and denied the Lord three times
David was after the mind an heart of God yet committed adultery, murder and numbered the military
Abraham was deceptive about his wife to save his own skin
Moses got drunk after the flood

Proof of growth and maturity...

Abraham.....Believed God and left his home country...HOW many years before he was "whacked" and how many years later was he mature enough to OFFER ISAAC on the ALTAR.........

MOSES took 80 years of preparation before he was chosen to LEAD the children of ISRAEL........

THE BIG ONE.....THE 70 that were rejoicing that they had the ability to cast out DEMONS....JESUS said....DO not rejoice in this.....REJOICE that YOUR NAMES are written IN HEAVEN....

TELL me...WHAT did they DO when they heard a difficult message about eating the flesh of JESUS and drinking his BLOOD........THEY got OFFENDED and walked away.....YET JESUS had said their NAMES were written in HEAVEN......NO where does it say they lost their salvation.........NO WHERE

 

[UnderGrace]

Do you believe heretics go to hell?

I think you gave yourself the wrong name

It should have been ...................................................BROKENRECORDHERE

 

[Argueless]

Nope I do not have to get it because that is not what scripture teaches.

When you go to court and the Judge has made a decree that you are innocent of all charges, the debt is paid in full and you are set free (regenerated/redeemed) then tell me how my belief changes the Judges decree?

Are you proposing the the judge overturns his verdict, based on our ongoing belief on what he has decreed?

How does one take back a debt that has been paid in full?

That seems rather silly, since when does the defendant who has been exonerated get to over turn the judges decree?

You know we have a will and we have choice. Perhaps I have a will to be in debt again but in reality I do not have that choice.

...But not all the Israelites ACCEPTED the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has BELIEVED our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and the message is HEARD THROUGH THE WORDS OF CHRIST. Romans 10:16-17

If FAITH ALONE saves, those of rocky soil heard and received and therefore were saved.

If they were saved but did not bear fruit because they have no root and fell away when trials came, will they remain saved?

Did the bible say that no one who has FAITH can lose their FAITH?...that they cannot be deceived? Will those who will be deceived still remain saved?

...At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED...For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles TO DECEIVE even the elect—if that were possible. Matthew 24:10-13 & 24

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

According to OSAS "Faith ALONE saves". If faith is lost by being deceived and turning away or abandoning that faith, do you still remain saved?

 

[stonesoffire]

Oh, btw, thanks fot affirming that eternally grateful Changed the words

I have no idea what this is about. And I wouldn't purposely try to show EG in error.

 

[FlyingDove]

The bible speaks in numerous places of the children of God....and their level of maturity, fruit bearing, works etc......

a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

I cite the Corinthian church as case example one.......it had ALL three of the above in it and some 15 errors

Thomas walked with JESUS for three years and had DOUBT and DID Not believe he was resurrected
Peter walked with JESUS three years and walked on water and was told WHEN you are CONVERTED strengthen the brethern and denied the Lord three times
David was after the mind an heart of God yet committed adultery, murder and numbered the military
Abraham was deceptive about his wife to save his own skin

Moses got drunk after the flood

Would you be kind enough to share the scripture where Moses got drunk after the flood. Thx, in advance.

 

[unclesilas]

Nope I do not have to get it because that is not what scripture teaches.

When you go to court and the Judge has made a decree that you are innocent of all charges, the debt is paid in full and you are set free (regenerated/redeemed) then tell me how my belief changes the Judges decree?

Are you proposing the the judge overturns his verdict, based on our ongoing belief on what he has decreed?

How does one take back a debt that has been paid in full?

That seems rather silly, since when does the defendant who has been exonerated get to over turn the judges decree?

You know we have a will and we have choice. Perhaps I have a will to be in debt again but in reality I do not have that choice.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life john3:16

When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; John16:8&9

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith. rom1:17

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe rom3:21&22

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. rom10:4

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2:15-17

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ – the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. phil3:9

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behaviour. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. col1:21-23

But my righteous[g] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.’[h]

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved. Heb10:39-40

 

[unclesilas]

Are you proposing the the judge overturns his verdict, based on our ongoing belief on what he has decreed?

How does one take back a debt that has been paid in full?

That seems rather silly, since when does the defendant who has been exonerated get to over turn the judges decree?

You know we have a will and we have choice. Perhaps I have a will to be in debt again but in reality I do not have that choice.

The judges verdict is based on you having faith in what his son did for you. That will never change throughout your life
But you are not going to listen are you. I really do not mean to be unkind, so I won't say anymore, up to you what you want to believe. But it is something that decides a persons eternity