Following Paul To Follow Christ

[Noblemen]

In the 7 letters to the 7 churches the risen Christ is using another spokesman: John.

You're right! Paul is not the exclusive spokesman of Christ, but he is the chief one. Apart from the writings of Paul we must read the epistles of John, Peter, James, Jude and the one to the Hebrews.

What I have always maintained in Christian Chat is that some of Jesus' teachings are not for Gentiles in the New Covenant.

It is a hard understand to see through the scriptures to what God has done. When you mess with the peoples golden calf (their bible) they don't like it and most can only see tge scriptures through doctrinal glasses, that is the way they have been trained. Just as the Jewish couldn't and still can't see, so goes religion.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul alone

Paul is to the born again as Moses was to the children of Israel. Paul alone recieved this message of Christ in you the hope of glory, without Paul you will not know the Christ in you. Without Paul's gospel we would not know about Christ living in the human being. That needs to be heeded by Christianity, but as we know it is not like that, more fun to preach God opening up the earth and it swallowing thousands of sinners the knowledge of good and evil are still running rampant in tge church, from leaders to the lay, very interesting how tgey can dance around the truth of God

My " issue" is outside the pauline only adherants mind.
They say well several things.
Then,turn around and get weird on the rest of the word.
God in a box,big time.
Paul said " i am glad i baptised none of you lest you say " i am of Paul"
" is paul crucified for you" ,my paraphrase.
Red flags galore over the near deification of a man.

How about JESUS ONLY??????
JESUS THE KING.
not a man,a risen savior.
You guys want to follow Paul?
Ok,go for it.
I will center on, and follow Jesus.
And btw,that bit in the pauline adherants talking point about you cant follow Jesus without obeying some scripure concerning the pharisees is a little goofy to anyone with a brain.
By the same token,make paul your package deal.
Get your head shaved,take a vow,get stoned,shipwrecked,....and on the beatings?.... maybe sell some tickets.
It COMPLETELY ESCAPES YOU, the suffering of paul.
At the very least"pick you out three towns with synagogues,preach Jesus,or your doctrine,Until they throw you out,but if no arrest is made,keep it up till one happens.
At the very least ,do that to be just a paul newbie apprentice.
Then ,with that authority, criticize , malighn ,and use out of context verses on the followers of Jesus.

You need not diminish Jesus and books of the bible to promote paul.
It escapes you that books like James compliment the rest of the word.
The same Holy Spirit wrote all the bible.

 

[Absolutely]

It is a hard understand to see through the scriptures to what God has done. When you mess with the peoples golden calf (their bible) they don't like it and most can only see tge scriptures through doctrinal glasses, that is the way they have been trained. Just as the Jewish couldn't and still can't see, so goes religion.

Woah.
The word of God offends you.
You are in a bad pit sir.

 

[John146]

I will center on, and follow Jesus.
And btw,that bit in the pauline adherants talking point about you cant follow Jesus without obeying some scripure concerning the pharisees is a little goofy to anyone with a brain.
By the same token,make paul your package deal.
Get your head shaved,take a vow,get stoned,shipwrecked,....and on the beatings?.... maybe sell some tickets.
It COMPLETELY ESCAPES YOU, the suffering of paul.
At the very least"pick you out three towns with synagogues,preach Jesus,or your doctrine,Until they throw you out,but if no arrest is made,keep it up till one happens.
At the very least ,do that to be just a paul newbie apprentice.
Then ,with that authority, criticize , malighn ,and use out of context verses on the followers of Jesus.

With this same mind, are you following Jesus? Have you cast out devils, healed the blind, raise the dead, fed 5,000 from 2 fish and 5 loaves, been scourged, beaten and crucified?

Come on brother. To follow Paul is following Christ. Christ revealed things to Paul that had never been revealed. Is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Marcelo]

This I have spoken to. Re readmy posts to YOU. I have read yours, but now I must go. Goodmoring from here. May God grant you the wisdom needed to interact with all who love Jesus, Yeshua.

I don't claim to have wisdom, but I can assure you that I always do my best to answer questions objectively without qualifying them as "ridiculous" when I get cornered.

JaumeJ said:
All who have not taken up Christ's invitation to learn from Him directly have always come to me with this ridiculous question or one very similar.

There is no need to carry on the discussion any longer because you have already admitted that some of the earthly Jesus' teachings don't apply to Christians today.

JaumeJ said:
Jesus sent the man to make the offering reequired by LAW because He was not yet glorified. I would not consider offering a sa rifice for my sin because there is NO sacrifice since Jesus Christ, Yeshau, and to offer anything now would be blasphemy (post 28).

 

[garee]

1Cor 11:1

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Following Paul as he follows Christ is imperative for God’s people today who are chosen to be in Christ. Actually, this is not something left to theologians to decide. The work was finished at the Cross, salvation was completed. Every sinner saved today is automatically placed in Christ.

This means Christ is their only life to God, Gal. 2:20.To be born again is not an option. The only salvation there is today is one where Christ is the life of the believer. These are the people the Father will have in His house. They all will be birthed by him. This wonderful salvation includes Israel. It is a "whosoever believeth" gospel.

Who knows all about this gospel? Paul, God’s chosen vessel to deliver it. No wonder we are told to follow Paul as he follows Christ. Israel followed Moses under God's plan for that dispensation, today we follow Paulas He follows Christ. Ironically, following Paul or doing things like Paul did them is mentioned eight times, in different ways, in Paul’s epistles, yet religion still doesn’t get it. Religion continues to deny believers their place in Christ. How simple it would be to read what Paul has to say about the new life in Christ.

However, if believers really want to know the truth, Paul's epistles are able to lead them into the plan of God for their lives. Time is short for believers to find out who they are in Christ.

Being in Christ is strictly for the earthly journey, and the coming of the Lord and the Rapture are growing nearer every day. How sad it would be not to know who we are in Christ when He appears.

Galations 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Following the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer has nothing to do with following a man seen .We seek the approval of our Father in heaven not seen.

We follow Christ unseen as Paul followed by faith the unseen, as it is written.

We are warned of those who say we do need a man to teach us described as the motive of operation of the antichrists.

The scriptures would not have us to try and follow two kinds of teaching masters. We abide in Him as he teaches us

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John2:26 -27

 

[Absolutely]

With this same mind, are you following Jesus? Have you cast out devils, healed the blind, raise the dead, fed 5,000 from 2 fish and 5 loaves, been scourged, beaten and crucified?

Come on brother. To follow Paul is following Christ. Christ revealed things to Paul that had never been revealed. Is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

You skirt all around my argument.
Redirecting back to a non issue.
I read paul more than you,or at least as much.
I diminish nothing in paul.
I dont follow man or mans writings.
I follow the real deal.
The Holy Spirit wrote all of it. All the bible

 

[garee]

With this same mind, are you following Jesus? Have you cast out devils, healed the blind, raise the dead, fed 5,000 from 2 fish and 5 loaves, been scourged, beaten and crucified?

Come on brother. To follow Paul is following Christ. Christ revealed things to Paul that had never been revealed. Is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

I would be careful on how we walk, or hear God not seen, called the hearing of faith ..

To walk by the faith of Christ, the faith coming from God that works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure is to follow Christ's word is how we can hear Him .

The believers in Acts were moved by the Spirit of Christ who had prepared their mind to search daily. Our daily bread They did not follow Paul to see if those things were so

Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so

 

[Absolutely]

With this same mind, are you following Jesus? Have you cast out devils, healed the blind, raise the dead, fed 5,000 from 2 fish and 5 loaves, been scourged, beaten and crucified?

Come on brother. To follow Paul is following Christ. Christ revealed things to Paul that had never been revealed. Is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Either embrace paul,like the yoke you place on others (hyper out of context yoke of radical overkill) or stop placing what you reject on others.
Why is there crickets when that component is reversed onto y'alls heads???????

Oh,it says many miracles were done by paul.
Please give us an update on what you say is mandatory to follow the pauline verses.
What was that again???

 

[Absolutely]

Oh wait, nevermind,Gods power ceased, right?

 

[Shemuel-Yerimiyahu]

Well, if you read the OT, here are some verses from Deut 4

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

There is no denying that, to all the Jews, Moses is the MAN they follow. Even Jesus himself said several times in the Gospels

"And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show
thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing THOSE THINGS WHICH MOSES
COMMANDED, for a testimony unto them" (Mark 1:43,44).

When the Pharisees brought up the question of divorce, He asked them in
reply:
"... WHAT DID MOSES COMMAND YOU?" (Mark 10:3).

Mark 10:3 is remarkable if you think about it. Jesus was God himself, and yet, because he is born under the Law and have to fulfill the entire Law on our behalf, he have to also recognize the special role Moses play, in the dispensation of the Law.

Once you understand the role Moses play for all Jews, including Jesus in the 4 Gospels, is it that really that weird for the Gentile Church to also recognize Paul as our Apostle, in the current dispensation of Grace?

You have listed some beautiful verses, but just because Moses says these things I teach you, does not mean he claims the office of teacher or puffs up his chest prior to do so. And in e Roy one of those verses he always gives Yahweh the credit for being the provider of said things to teach or commanded word. He never says “my” and leaves it that it always has something to do with Yahweh (God) the one time he stepped out a bit in this sense was when he stroke the rock versus speaking to it which ultimately got him and Aaron both in trouble. My point is that although we know Moses as a leader and he def was a leader, someone had to get those people out of bondage and 430 years of forgetting thier laws and heritage. He stayed humble and always pointed to the source of his power and never uttered the words “I am your leader and obey all that I do” he does say obey the words I command which thou Father hast given (referencing back to Yahweh even though he says my”). If the church is to have a leader and be led let it be Yahshua and the spirit not words of a man that struggled with duality of sin and not sin. Like I have said before I think Paul has some good nuggets in his epistles but not something to hang my theology on. I do study daily and read his epistles in my studies and do word studies and try to really understand what he is saying and what he truly is all about. But it’s my personal belief that he should viewed as a man that has some good things to say, albeit confusing when he starts talking double mindedly (seemingly, I am not judging just stating that there are several instances where he says the law is abolished and that it’s not abolished, as an example but I continue to study to see what he is really trying to say)

 

[JaumeJ]

I don't claim to have wisdom, but I can assure you that I always do my best to answer questions objectively without qualifying them as "ridiculous" when I get cornered.

JaumeJ said:
All who have not taken up Christ's invitation to learn from Him directly have always come to me with this ridiculous question or one very similar.

There is no need to carry on the discussion any longer because you have already admitted that some of the earthly Jesus' teachings don't apply to Christians today.

JaumeJ said:
Jesus sent the man to make the offering reequired by LAW because He was not yet glorified. I would not consider offering a sa rifice for my sin because there is NO sacrifice since Jesus Christ, Yeshau, and to offer anything now would be blasphemy (post 28).

Your understanding is erroneous. I do not know any Portuguese, so I cannot anwer in the language of Brazil. YOu are biting off much more than you are able to chew here and you are confusing the questions and the responses. cleusa...

 

[Absolutely]

Following the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer has nothing to do with following a man seen .We seek the approval of our Father in heaven not seen.

We follow Christ unseen as Paul followed by faith the unseen, as it is written.

We are warned of those who say we do need a man to teach us described as the motive of operation of the antichrists.

The scriptures would not have us to try and follow two kinds of teaching masters. We abide in Him as he teaches us

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John2:26 -27

Nailed it.
Big time
Bravo sir

 

[Absolutely]

You have listed some beautiful verses, but just because Moses says these things I teach you, does not mean he claims the office of teacher or puffs up his chest prior to do so. And in e Roy one of those verses he always gives Yahweh the credit for being the provider of said things to teach or commanded word. He never says “my” and leaves it that it always has something to do with Yahweh (God) the one time he stepped out a bit in this sense was when he stroke the rock versus speaking to it which ultimately got him and Aaron both in trouble. My point is that although we know Moses as a leader and he def was a leader, someone had to get those people out of bondage and 430 years of forgetting thier laws and heritage. He stayed humble and always pointed to the source of his power and never uttered the words “I am your leader and obey all that I do” he does say obey the words I command which thou Father hast given (referencing back to Yahweh even though he says my”). If the church is to have a leader and be led let it be Yahshua and the spirit not words of a man that struggled with duality of sin and not sin. Like I have said before I think Paul has some good nuggets in his epistles but not something to hang my theology on. I do study daily and read his epistles in my studies and do word studies and try to really understand what he is saying and what he truly is all about. But it’s my personal belief that he should viewed as a man that has some good things to say, albeit confusing when he starts talking double mindedly (seemingly, I am not judging just stating that there are several instances where he says the law is abolished and that it’s not abolished, as an example but I continue to study to see what he is really trying to say)

Paul believed ,correctly,that the law was perfect. However,the law held up to man became a curse,in that at best,it revealed sinfulness.
Through the law man was cursed.
Through the savior we are saved,redeemed,and set free from the curse of the law.
It is not the law that was a curse,but its correlation to man.
Romans 6&7 depicts the battle of the believer. To walk in the freedom of Christ,ch 8,or walk in the bondage of sin ch 7.
Gal 3 gives another dimension
" there was no LAW given that could impart life"
It took a resurrection. Neither the law or the levitical priesthood had any such resurrection.
It all ties in.

 

[Noblemen]

Following the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer has nothing to do with following a man seen .We seek the approval of our Father in heaven not seen.

We follow Christ unseen as Paul followed by faith the unseen, as it is written.

We are warned of those who say we do need a man to teach us described as the motive of operation of the antichrists.

The scriptures would not have us to try and follow two kinds of teaching masters. We abide in Him as he teaches us

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John2:26 -27

Care to explain Paul's terminology

 

[Lanolin]

JEsus personally chose Paul to be apostle to the gentiles and...Paul told the gentiles about Jesus he was not puffed up in the way his detractors claim.

He talked about his supernatural conversion in .book of acts at least three times, and suffered by being put in prison, beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, falsely accused, buffeted by satan...he boasted nothing except for preaching Christ crucified. We do well to follow his example, if anyone formerly persecuted believers as a Pharisee can attest but then he became the first and greatest missionary ever. He went on his journeys reaching out to people hed never met, that werent his family or kindred...how many of us do that and dedicate our whole lives to that task? For Jesus? We do well to follow his example.

 

[Marcelo]

Your understanding is erroneous. I do not know any Portuguese, so I cannot anwer in the language of Brazil. YOu are biting off much more than you are able to chew here and you are confusing the questions and the responses. cleusa...

You're right! I don't have a good command of English. I suggest you learn Esperanto and then we'll be on an equal footing. The language is very easy -- I became fluent in it in less than a year.

Esperanto: A fair international language
From: Translation Bureau

Posted: November 19, 2018 Written by: Nicolas Viau

What if you could communicate in a fair way with people who don’t share your native language, while promoting linguistic diversity? That’s the goal of Esperanto. It’s a constructed language, which is to say, a language designed through a conscious process.

Beginnings
The story of Esperanto began when Ludvik Lejzer Zamenhof published the foundations of the language in 1887. Hailing from the city of Białystok, located in what is today eastern Poland (and was at that time part of the Russian Empire), Zamenhof, an ophthalmologist by trade, set out to create a language that would make it easier for people from different cultures to communicate and thereby settle disagreements. In particular, he was influenced by the less than harmonious relations between the Jewish community (of which Zamenhof was himself a member) and the Russian, Polish, German and Belarusian communities that lived side by side in his hometown.

Easy to learn
Esperanto’s vocabulary is essentially taken from European languages. However, what makes the language so accessible is its very regular and essentially exception-free grammar, which allows each new concept learned to be generalized throughout the language. Creating new words and concepts is very easy, which makes Esperanto highly adaptable to a changing world. These features can also give learners of the language increased confidence in their learning abilities.
Here are a few examples of word creation using common prefixes and suffixes:
varma [warm, hot] + -et- [diminutive] = varmeta [lukewarm]
arbo [tree] + -ar- [indicates a collection] = arbaro [forest]
bona [good] + mal- [opposite] = malbona [bad]

A fair language, a bridge between cultures
How to overcome the language barrier is a problem as old as humankind. As any learner of a second language knows well, it’s more difficult to function in that language than in one’s native language… Hence the idea of an auxiliary communication language that’s easy to learn and “neutral,” in the sense that it’s (virtually) nobody’s native language and therefore belongs to no one. (In fact, it belongs to everyone!).

 

[JaumeJ]

You're right! I don't have a good command of English. I suggest you learn Esperanto and then we'll be on an equal footing. The language is very easy -- I became fluent in it in less than a year.

Esperanto: A fair international language
From: Translation Bureau

Posted: November 19, 2018 Written by: Nicolas Viau

What if you could communicate in a fair way with people who don’t share your native language, while promoting linguistic diversity? That’s the goal of Esperanto. It’s a constructed language, which is to say, a language designed through a conscious process.

Beginnings
The story of Esperanto began when Ludvik Lejzer Zamenhof published the foundations of the language in 1887. Hailing from the city of Białystok, located in what is today eastern Poland (and was at that time part of the Russian Empire), Zamenhof, an ophthalmologist by trade, set out to create a language that would make it easier for people from different cultures to communicate and thereby settle disagreements. In particular, he was influenced by the less than harmonious relations between the Jewish community (of which Zamenhof was himself a member) and the Russian, Polish, German and Belarusian communities that lived side by side in his hometown.

Easy to learn
Esperanto’s vocabulary is essentially taken from European languages. However, what makes the language so accessible is its very regular and essentially exception-free grammar, which allows each new concept learned to be generalized throughout the language. Creating new words and concepts is very easy, which makes Esperanto highly adaptable to a changing world. These features can also give learners of the language increased confidence in their learning abilities.
Here are a few examples of word creation using common prefixes and suffixes:
varma [warm, hot] + -et- [diminutive] = varmeta [lukewarm]
arbo [tree] + -ar- [indicates a collection] = arbaro [forest]
bona [good] + mal- [opposite] = malbona [bad]

A fair language, a bridge between cultures
How to overcome the language barrier is a problem as old as humankind. As any learner of a second language knows well, it’s more difficult to function in that language than in one’s native language… Hence the idea of an auxiliary communication language that’s easy to learn and “neutral,” in the sense that it’s (virtually) nobody’s native language and therefore belongs to no one. (In fact, it belongs to everyone!).

Actually, it seems your ability in English is excellent, however I do not think you have been understanding all I have posted.

As for Esperanto, I have known about Esperanto for at least fifty years. The idea of it is good, unhappily most folks do not want their own language tampered with.

YOu do not share the same temperament as my family in Brazil, but then no two persons are much alike anyways.

As for the posts here, I honestly do not believe you have understood what I have been saying, and this perspective is taken from your responses and your questions about things I have already answered to you. I feel as though I am giong around in circles in this conversation. Obrigado...…..j

 

[Marcelo]

Actually, it seems your ability in English is excellent, however I do not think you have been understanding all I have posted.

As for Esperanto, I have known about Esperanto for at least fifty years. The idea of it is good, unhappily most folks do not want their own language tampered with.

YOu do not share the same temperament as my family in Brazil, but then no two persons are much alike anyways.

As for the posts here, I honestly do not believe you have understood what I have been saying, and this perspective is taken from your responses and your questions about things I have already answered to you. I feel as though I am giong around in circles in this conversation. Obrigado...…..j

Knowing about Esperanto is already a great thing. The great majority of people don't even know that it is the name of a language.

My wife -- just like many CC members -- frowns on this "before-the-cross vs. after-the-cross" thing and yet we live in harmony and worship the same God. Let us all live in harmony!

May Yeshua bless you!

 

[Shemuel-Yerimiyahu]

Paul believed ,correctly,that the law was perfect. However,the law held up to man became a curse,in that at best,it revealed sinfulness.
Through the law man was cursed.
Through the savior we are saved,redeemed,and set free from the curse of the law.
It is not the law that was a curse,but its correlation to man.
Romans 6&7 depicts the battle of the believer. To walk in the freedom of Christ,ch 8,or walk in the bondage of sin ch 7.
Gal 3 gives another dimension
" there was no LAW given that could impart life"
It took a resurrection. Neither the law or the levitical priesthood had any such resurrection.
It all ties in.

I feel that we are close to being on the same page, my goal is not to get any to convert to my understanding but rather share what my understanding is in hopes that we can all bring our pieces of light together to make a brighter light. I believe the law is to be still walked out today, along with knowing that we fall short and therefore the sacrifice that Messiah made for us covers and atones that sin when I confess and repent, but walking out Torah to the best of my ability allows me to practice a righteous walk versus practicing sin. I also believe these statutes that Yahweh (God) has commanded to be upheld throughout all of our generations (generations are still continuing today as in people being born) are meant to be exactly what he told us, carry them out for the rest of humanity’s existence. Now understandably this may ruffle feathers but that is not my intent nor did I come in to discuss the law and why I believe it to be valid along with looking to our Messiah for salvation, I did come in to discuss Paul and that he has some good words sprinkled throughout his teachings, and going back to beginning statement of this forum, I disagree that we should follow Paul in order to follow Yahshua, I think we should follow Yahshua to follow Yahshua. I would say the same of any present day teacher or rabbi or preacher or priest. That they may have good teachings and cause us to ponder things and look to Yahshua and the scriptures to study on our own and come to know truth. I don’t believe we should diefy any man, Moses, Paul, any of them other than whom our true God is which is Yahweh and follow his Son’s example, and live according to his statutes, and love one another and dig deep for spiritual meat and not stay as spiritual babes.