There are only 2 Persons in the Israelite Godhead, not 3 Persons

[Hevosmies]

Brace yourself:

Jesus is Jehovah in the OT.

(had to fix my last response)

You can prove/disprove anything to yourself by using google anyway. Whatever you want to find, you will find it. If you want to believe in a quadrity instead of a trinity, im sure google can help you

But one thing I urge Demi and rest of the people who dont believe in the trinity to do is:

Go look up all the OT passages that are attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. And Remember that "LORD" in large letters is actually YHWH in Hebrew (atleast in the KJV, but i believe also in other versions). Which means that its the Lord GOD.

Now if you do that, you will notice that many times that title is attributed to Jesus. Its never attributed to nobody else. I've argued with enough unitarians to know that their argument of "well moses was a God unto pharaoh" doesnt work because the word for God in that verse is Elohim. Which does mean God, but it can also be used of earthly rulers, and sometimes even false gods. Whereas the word LORD (or YHWH in the hebrew) is something that is only ever used of God. (THE ONE TRUE GOD of Isaac Abraham and Jacob)

Here is one example:

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

(^Notice the word LORD, meaning YHWH is the one to whom the way is prepared for, and we know from the new testament who is preparing the way, and to whom, its John the Baptist preparing the way for JESUS, look

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

 

[Hungry]

Brace yourself:

Jesus is Jehovah in the OT.

(had to fix my last response)

If Jesus is Jehovah, who is His Father?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Jesus is Jehovah, who is His Father?

In Is 48 Pre-incarnate Jesus is telling Isreal how he, the Lord their God (YHWH) is who he is, and he explains how the Lord God (YHWH) and his sapirit have sent him

YHWH (Jehovah) is the “singular” word translated God. And it can either be used to reference the God of Isreal. Or the father

Elohim is the plural form of th ehebrew text translated God. And references the godhead as a single unit. (In th ebegining God (Elohim) created the heaven and earth)

 

[Deade]

Way to stir up the hornet nest. Many here are steadfast in their beliefs and there is no “adding to understanding”, in fear of blasphemy. I however am always seeking greater understanding into the mysteries of God. I came to a similar conclusion as to what you propose but tweaked it slightly. In trying to understand the unseen, we use the imagery of the seen to gain clarity. Like Christ used parables of farming to farmers, and you use the wifi to explain the Holy Spirit. Let me ask you this; how do you perceive the human body? Is it the spirit/soul that is the life force? Is it the brain and hypothalamus coordinating function, and purpose? What is in control? Who is our identity? Are we a collection of our thoughts and programming or does the brain just process the information and our soul interprets and commands the brain to signal the body to react? Or, are we all of this.

I would say all of the above and probably more.

If Jesus is Jehovah, who is His Father?

They both have the same name. You can use all of them interchangeably. Jesus is even called Father one place.

 

[jaybird88]

This is all just so confusing to me.

Matthew 28:19 teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is obviously referenced to a Triune God. And the Holy Spirit is referred to a "he" not an "it"....so how is the Holy Spirit not a person?

Scripture makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is a person. You haven't read New Testament well enough to know the Holy Spirit is a person.

Why did the apostles not baptize this way?

 

[PS]

If Jesus is Jehovah, who is His Father?

Jesus is the self existing one, the creator (Jehovah) come down to earth.

This is Jehovah in heaven speaking in the Old Testament.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:22-23 KJV)

This is Jehovah (Jesus) on earth.
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:10-11 KJV)

This is Jesus the eternal God, come to earth, as promised in the Old Testament.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6 KJV)

 

[preacher4truth]

If Jesus is Jehovah, who is His Father?

Jesus is referred to as Jehovah in Jeremiah 23:6.

 

[preacher4truth]

You can prove/disprove anything to yourself by using google anyway. Whatever you want to find, you will find it. If you want to believe in a quadrity instead of a trinity, im sure google can help you

But one thing I urge Demi and rest of the people who dont believe in the trinity to do is:

Go look up all the OT passages that are attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. And Remember that "LORD" in large letters is actually YHWH in Hebrew (atleast in the KJV, but i believe also in other versions). Which means that its the Lord GOD.

Now if you do that, you will notice that many times that title is attributed to Jesus. Its never attributed to nobody else. I've argued with enough unitarians to know that their argument of "well moses was a God unto pharaoh" doesnt work because the word for God in that verse is Elohim. Which does mean God, but it can also be used of earthly rulers, and sometimes even false gods. Whereas the word LORD (or YHWH in the hebrew) is something that is only ever used of God. (THE ONE TRUE GOD of Isaac Abraham and Jacob)

Here is one example:

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

(^Notice the word LORD, meaning YHWH is the one to whom the way is prepared for, and we know from the new testament who is preparing the way, and to whom, its John the Baptist preparing the way for JESUS, look

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Demi's problems go much much deeper. She also rejects Christ's deity. But in today's apostasy she will be coddled and called a Christian. Watch...

 

[GraceAndTruth]

The doctrine of the Trinity is held historically by orthodox Christianity.

“The ONE true God eternally exists as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal, co-eternal, and one in essence.

1 John 5:7 – 9 KJV
For there are THREE that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE ARE ONE. And there are THREE that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water and the blood; and these THREE agree in ONE.
…this is the witness of God

Romans 1:20 (Godhead) KJV
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse….

 

[YDo]

When I Googled the subject "Trinity" it said that it was Tertullian who in the third century AD began to advocate that the Holy Spirit is a person.

I don't believe in the Trinity, the concept that there are THREE Persons in the Israelite Godhead.

I only believe that there are TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead.

There is God the Father of the Old Testament and there is God the Son.

As for God the Father:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

(The above word "LORD" is the word "Yehova" in Hebrew)

And this God Jehova has a Son:

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman.

But the most important Biblical evidence that there are only TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead is found in the letters of Paul.

At the beginning of ALL Paul's letters, Paul ONLY BRINGS GREETINGS to the Church from GOD THE FATHER and from the LORD JESUS CHRIST ... and then, Paul... STOPS! Let's look at those verses:

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colosse: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus, to the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

NOW, if Paul had considered the Holy Spirit to be a Person, would not Paul also have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit to the Church?

Indeed, the Bible says instead that the Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

So clearly the Spirit is something that belongs to God the father and that belongs to God the Son.

Again, if anyone in the New Testament would have known whether the Holy Spirit was a person like God the Father and like God the Son ... Paul would have certainly known it and Paul would also have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit and the reason Paul NEVER did is because Paul knew that the Holy Spirit was not a person.

There are only TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead, God the Father and God the Son Jesus Christ.

It was Tertullian who in the third century AD floated the idea that the Holy Spirit was a person and the modern church has adopted it Hook, Line & Sinker.

Actually there's only one. The Deuteronomy verse is right. Our God is one.
While Jesus was his holy spirit manifest before men in the flesh. Which is why he was named Immanuel. God with us. Matt 1:23
“Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”).

 

[YDo]

I think discussions like this that disentigrate into what this one has would in future benefit greatly if participants undertook a study first of Biblical Chronology.

 

[Homewardbound]

Spiritual liquid= Coffee

Want some?

ME ME ME I WANT SOME!!!!

 

[Hungry]

I don’t know how people can try to persuade others of clearly illogical arguments. My children play on a team. The team is one. They are individuals, sharing one purpose. If Jesus is the Father then who was He praying to? Who said, “This is my son, in who I am well pleased?” Why didn’t Jesus say, “You have made my house a den of thieves?” Why did the Father know when the end was, but not Christ? Why didn’t He say, “I must leave so I can send my Spirit to be with you?” All of these examples, plus many more make it clear there is individualism in the hierarchy of Heaven. But no, some want to hone in on one verse that states the Father and I are One, then case closed, monotheism, no debate.

 

[jaybird88]

I don’t know how people can try to persuade others of clearly illogical arguments. My children play on a team. The team is one. They are individuals, sharing one purpose. If Jesus is the Father then who was He praying to? Who said, “This is my son, in who I am well pleased?” Why didn’t Jesus say, “You have made my house a den of thieves?” Why did the Father know when the end was, but not Christ? Why didn’t He say, “I must leave so I can send my Spirit to be with you?” All of these examples, plus many more make it clear there is individualism in the hierarchy of Heaven. But no, some want to hone in on one verse that states the Father and I are One, then case closed, monotheism, no debate.

maybe the Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father? and i guess the Son prayed to Himself? makes no sense to me either.

 

[PS]

maybe the Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father? and i guess the Son prayed to Himself? makes no sense to me either.

It makes sense if we remember Jesus on earth was God in the flesh. It is thanks to his duel nature that he was able to speak both as a man, and as God the I AM. For example:

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

And it was Jesus (Jehovah) the I AM who spoke to Moses.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exo 3:14 KJV)

 

[jaybird88]

It makes sense if we remember Jesus on earth was God in the flesh. It is thanks to his duel nature that he was able to speak both as a man, and as God the I AM. For example:

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

And it was Jesus (Jehovah) the I AM who spoke to Moses.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exo 3:14 KJV)

it actually makes even less sense being as Jesus on earth said the Most High was His Father as well as His G-D.

 

[PS]

it actually makes even less sense being as Jesus on earth said the Most High was His Father as well as His G-D.

Jesus there is speaking in his human form.

 

[jaybird88]

Jesus there is speaking in his human form.

ok? and that means His "human form" teachings are different, dont count, temporary or what? when the Most High commands the Jews not to murder, is this command conditional depending on the form the Most High was in when He gave the command?
didnt Jesus teach us scripture can not be sat aside.

 

[PS]

ok? and that means His "human form" teachings are different, dont count, temporary or what? when the Most High commands the Jews not to murder, is this command conditional depending on the form the Most High was in when He gave the command?
didnt Jesus teach us scripture can not be sat aside.

There is nothing conditional about God's commands. It is in our own interest to obey God the Word, the I AM.

Not only is God in the image of man telling us not to murder, he is telling us not even to call people a fool.

"You have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, 'You must not murder,' and 'Whoever murders will be subject to punishment.' But I say to you, anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be subject to punishment. And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council. And whoever says 'You fool!' will be subject to hell fire.
(Mat 5:21-22 ISV)

 

[Hungry]

It makes sense if we remember Jesus on earth was God in the flesh. It is thanks to his duel nature that he was able to speak both as a man, and as God the I AM. For example:

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

And it was Jesus (Jehovah) the I AM who spoke to Moses.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exo 3:14 KJV)

How do you completely dodge sound logic? Christ said to pray to the Father in His Name. Christ sits at the right hand of God. The parable of the land owner (Matt 21:33). All of this points to that there is a Father and a Son existing separately. The only reason people argue against such obviousness is to satisfy their cognitive dissonance. They read Exodus 20:3 and think if they say anything other than monotheism they are breaking a commandment. It doesn’t say there aren’t more elohim (gods). It states He is theirs, who delivered them. He owns them because He made them. He is the God of gods. This is the ONLY rational truth. We serve Jehovah. We are Christ’ Body. Christ does His Fathers work. The Son is not the Father, but both are elohim. Elohim is plural not singular.