There are only 2 Persons in the Israelite Godhead, not 3 Persons

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PS

PS

Senior Member
#81
Jan 11, 2013
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#81
Hungry said:
How do you completely dodge sound logic? Christ said to pray to the Father in His Name. Christ sits at the right hand of God. The parable of the land owner (Matt 21:33). All of this points to that there is a Father and a Son existing separately. The only reason people argue against such obviousness is to satisfy their cognitive dissonance. They read Exodus 20:3 and think if they say anything other than monotheism they are breaking a commandment. It doesn’t say there aren’t more elohim (gods). It states He is theirs, who delivered them. He owns them because He made them. He is the God of gods. This is the ONLY rational truth. We serve Jehovah. We are Christ’ Body. Christ does His Fathers work. The Son is not the Father, but both are elohim. Elohim is plural not singular.
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The Son is not the Father. I agree. Neither is the Holy Spirit the Son or the Father. My God is a Triune God.

As far as I am concerned Roots, Branches and Leaves are ONE Tree.
As far as I am concerned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE God.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#82
#82
Hungry said:
How do you completely dodge sound logic? Christ said to pray to the Father in His Name. Christ sits at the right hand of God. The parable of the land owner (Matt 21:33). All of this points to that there is a Father and a Son existing separately. The only reason people argue against such obviousness is to satisfy their cognitive dissonance. They read Exodus 20:3 and think if they say anything other than monotheism they are breaking a commandment. It doesn’t say there aren’t more elohim (gods). It states He is theirs, who delivered them. He owns them because He made them. He is the God of gods. This is the ONLY rational truth. We serve Jehovah. We are Christ’ Body. Christ does His Fathers work. The Son is not the Father, but both are elohim. Elohim is plural not singular.
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they like to dodge.
why do you think the Jews were always proclaiming the shema back then? when they say "our Lord is one" what did they mean by this? one as opposed to what?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#83
#83
PS said:
Jesus there is speaking in his human form.
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This is not applicable
Jesus was still the same BEING as he was in the OT. Where he himself in the OT said he was sent from the father and the HS
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#84
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#84
PS said:
The Son is not the Father. I agree. Neither is the Holy Spirit the Son or the Father. My God is a Triune God.

As far as I am concerned Roots, Branches and Leaves are ONE Tree.
As far as I am concerned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE God.
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You seem to be trying to separate the Holy Spirit from the Father and Christ. You can't separate the very thing that makes God what He/They are. We need to quit trying to understand and label the Godhead. It has attributes we cannot fathom.

Our brains are finite. Everything we see has a beginning and seemingly an end. I can't even imagine omnipresence. What is that like? What about omniscience? Not just knowing everybody and all facts, present and past, but the future as pertains to each of us. How does that all fit together into a package we can wrap our minds around? Splain that, if you can. :cool:
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#85
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#85
Deade said:
You seem to be trying to separate the Holy Spirit from the Father and Christ. You can't separate the very thing that makes God what He/They are. We need to quit trying to understand and label the Godhead. It has attributes we cannot fathom.

Our brains are finite. Everything we see has a beginning and seemingly an end. I can't even imagine omnipresence. What is that like? What about omniscience? Not just knowing everybody and all facts, present and past, but the future as pertains to each of us. How does that all fit together into a package we can wrap our minds around? Splain that, if you can. :cool:
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God is omnipresent as you say. He is with us in Spirit every moment of the day; was present with us in the flesh when he came down from heaven, and is always our Heavenly Father.

"I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38) Only God can come down from heaven. The Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters at creation (Gen 1:2) the Holy Spirit, and He is our Heavenly Father.

There is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one
Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Cor 8:6)​

These are the attributes of the ONE omniscient, omnipresent God, from whom all things flow. He is our Creator, our Saviour, and our Heavenly Father. For God is One.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#86
Sep 28, 2015
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#86
You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink.
I think of that old "saw" many times as I read some of the postings.
Debate is good between like minded people..........impossible with divergent minds.
I prefer iron to sharpen iron and actually edify one another.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#87
Sep 28, 2015
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#87
Maybe this will help a bit:

The trinity is about one person being three persons. In purely human context, people are "trinities" or three in one.
Men are Sons, husband, fathers
Woman are Daughters, wives and mothers
Our "essence" does not change but our "ministry" does.

The Trinity is not a thing to be understood by the finite mind, it come from the place of the infinite and is spiritually discerned
And that is the last pearl I am tossing to pigs who deny the Trinity.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#88
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#88
GraceAndTruth said:
Maybe this will help a bit:

The trinity is about one person being three persons. In purely human context, people are "trinities" or three in one.
Men are Sons, husband, fathers
Woman are Daughters, wives and mothers
Our "essence" does not change but our "ministry" does.

The Trinity is not a thing to be understood by the finite mind, it come from the place of the infinite and is spiritually discerned
And that is the last pearl I am tossing to pigs who deny the Trinity.
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Your examples are Modalism.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#89
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#89
preacher4truth said:
Your examples are Modalism.
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Your posts are nit-picky......shame on you AGAIN.
It was a perfectly good analogy put in human terms and not intended to explain the infinite at all.

As your nit-picky brain probably knows but you just can't help yourself.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE EVERYONE'S PERSONAL JIMINY CRICKET.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#90
Jul 18, 2017
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#90
GraceAndTruth said:
The trinity is about one person being three persons.
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There should be a fine distinction made right here in order to conform to Scripture. Not "one person" but "one God", who is manifest in three divine Persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Since we are dealing with the Mystery of God, this is beyond human comprehension, and to be accepted by faith.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 Jn 5:7 KJV)
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#91
#91
YehovaYeshua said:
When I Googled the subject "Trinity" it said that it was Tertullian who in the third century AD began to advocate that the Holy Spirit is a person.

I don't believe in the Trinity, the concept that there are THREE Persons in the Israelite Godhead.

I only believe that there are TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead.

There is God the Father of the Old Testament and there is God the Son.

As for God the Father:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

(The above word "LORD" is the word "Yehova" in Hebrew)

And this God Jehova has a Son:

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman.

But the most important Biblical evidence that there are only TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead is found in the letters of Paul.

At the beginning of ALL Paul's letters, Paul ONLY BRINGS GREETINGS to the Church from GOD THE FATHER and from the LORD JESUS CHRIST ... and then, Paul... STOPS! Let's look at those verses:

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colosse: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus, to the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

NOW, if Paul had considered the Holy Spirit to be a Person, would not Paul also have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit to the Church?

Indeed, the Bible says instead that the Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

So clearly the Spirit is something that belongs to God the father and that belongs to God the Son.

Again, if anyone in the New Testament would have known whether the Holy Spirit was a person like God the Father and like God the Son ... Paul would have certainly known it and Paul would also have sent greetings from the Holy Spirit and the reason Paul NEVER did is because Paul knew that the Holy Spirit was not a person.

There are only TWO Persons in the Israelite Godhead, God the Father and God the Son Jesus Christ.

It was Tertullian who in the third century AD floated the idea that the Holy Spirit was a person and the modern church has adopted it Hook, Line & Sinker.
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I think you missed one old testament scripture.

Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the Lord of hosts.

Glad you googled this it shows how hard ya studied, but at least we know who is without. I'd do some serious praying on this.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#92
#92
YehovaYeshua said:
It was Tertullian who in the third century AD floated the idea that the Holy Spirit was a person and the modern church has adopted it Hook, Line & Sinker.
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i dont think it was that simple. tertulliam was around 200 years after Jesus but it would be around 600 years (after ascension) before it became an official doctrine.
another important fact to consider, people were not simply duped into believing this, people were killed if they didnt accept. burning people alive publicly is about as far from Christ as one can get. sometimes entire villages full of women and children were burned to the ground, all in the name of a man made doctrine that the most intelligent theologians say can not even be explained or understood.
 
FlyingDove

FlyingDove

Senior Member
#93
Dec 27, 2017
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#93
YehovaYeshua said:
There is God the Father of the Old Testament and there is God the Son.

As for God the Father:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
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The one LORD & GOD mentioned in God the Son:

Old Testament God Is New Testament Jesus

Genesis 1:1 God is the Creator
John 1:3-10 Jesus is the Creator

Genesis 17:1 The Almighty is God
Rev. 1:8 Jesus is the Almighty

Exodus 3:14 The “I am” is God
John 8:58 Jesus is the “I am”

Deut. 10:17 The Lord of Lords is God
Rev. 19:16 Jesus is Lord of Lords

Ps 18:31 The Rock is God
I Cor 10:4 Jesus is the Rock

Psalms 22:16 They pierced my hands and my feet
Zechariah 12:10 They pierced me – God
John 19:34 They pierced Jesus

Ps 146:10 God shall reign forever
Luke 1:33 Jesus will reign forever

Isa 40:11 The Shepherd is God
John 10:16 Jesus is the Shepherd

Isa 41:14 The Redeemer is God
Luke 1:68 Jesus is the Redeemer

Isa 43:10 God said, “I am he”
John 8:24 Jesus said, “I am he”

Isa 43:10,11 (God is the Saviour
Luke 2:11 Jesus is the Saviour

Jer 31:32 God, the One Husband
II Cor. 11:2 Jesus-The One Husband

Zec 14:4-5 God is coming
Matt 25:31 Jesus is coming

Mal 1:6 The One Master is God
Matt 23:8 Jesus is the One Master

Isa 43:15 The Holy One is God
Acts 3:14 Jesus is the Holy One

Isa 43:15 God is King of Israel
Matt 27:37 Jesus is King of Israel

Isa 45:21 The One Saviour is God
Acts 4:12 Jesus is the One Saviour

Isa 43:10,11 God is the only Saviour
Titus 1:4 Jesus is the only Saviour

Isa 44:6 The first and last is God
Rev. 1:8, 22:13 Jesus is first and last

Isa. 44:6 The King of Israel is God
John 1:49 Jesus is King of Israel

Isa. 45:23 Every knee must bow to God
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee must bow to Jesus

Psalms 22:16 They pierced my hands and my feet
Zechariah 12:10 They pierced me – God
John 19:34 They pierced Jesus

The ALMIGHTY GOD throughout the OT is:

Jesus Say's here: Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

2 Timothy 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#94
#94
GraceAndTruth said:
Maybe this will help a bit:

The trinity is about one person being three persons. In purely human context, people are "trinities" or three in one.
Men are Sons, husband, fathers
Woman are Daughters, wives and mothers
Our "essence" does not change but our "ministry" does.

The Trinity is not a thing to be understood by the finite mind, it come from the place of the infinite and is spiritually discerned
And that is the last pearl I am tossing to pigs who deny the Trinity.
Click to expand...
im a man, Jesus was a man, i must be Jesus?? sorry it just does not add up.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#95
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#95
jaybird88 said:
im a man, Jesus was a man, i must be Jesus?? sorry it just does not add up.
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I suppose if Bill Gates came down from his posh office and appeared in the TV program "Undercover Boss" wearing dirty overalls and calling himself John Doe, and later on he told you he was Bill Gates, you wouldn't believe him either!

Unless you being a man, makes you Bill Gates!!
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#96
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#96
Nehemiah6 said:
There should be a fine distinction made right here in order to conform to Scripture. Not "one person" but "one God", who is manifest in three divine Persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Since we are dealing with the Mystery of God, this is beyond human comprehension, and to be accepted by faith.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 Jn 5:7 KJV)
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pick pick pick pick.........and the official doctrine uses ONE PERSON.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#97
#97
PS said:
I suppose if Bill Gates came down from his posh office and appeared in the TV program "Undercover Boss" wearing dirty overalls and calling himself John Doe, and later on he told you he was Bill Gates, you wouldn't believe him either!

Unless you being a man, makes you Bill Gates!!
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i was addressing the flaws in the man>father>son analogy. it does not work. anyone with a 5th grade plus education can easily see through it.
 
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