Speaking in tongues

[Noose]

You left out the part where he says to be zealous for the edification of the church and says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Then he makes another argument about prayer. If he prays in tongues, he is edified, but the other is not. He will pray in tongues. He will pray in the understanding. But if you pray in the church you do not edifiy others. Paul spoke in tongues more than them all, but if he were in the church, he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue. He requires later in the chapter that when they come together 'let all things be done unto edifying.' Paul is not opposed to praying in tongues. He is saying that in the church, all things must be done unto edifying. After saying this, he gives instructions that require tongues to be interpreted, some guidelines for prophets that also require a speaking prophet to hold his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation for ye may all prophesy one by one.

Paul is not opposed to speaking in tongues. He says 'forbid not to speak in tongues.' Speaking in tongues does not edify others without interpretation. In the church, all things are to be done unto edifying. Therefore, if one is speaking in tongues and there be no interpreter, he is to keep silent in the church and to speak to himself and to God.

Love is the greatest virtue that Paul wanted them to have. Chapter 13 is about love and chapter 14 starts the whole argument about tongues on the basis of love. Love is always about others and never self, so the idea of self edification in Corinth was what was wrong with them that Paul wrote to correct.
How then do you pick a wrong and apply it to yourself in the name of self edification?

It was already said the gifts were for the common good and never self good. So the whole argument about tongues is that it should be understandable, either by interpretation or speaking intelligible words straight away- both are not happening today so we can dismiss current phenomenon as fake but there are other many many reasons to do so.

 

[garee]

I definitely meant both. My spelling is atrocious if I'm on my phone. The keys are too small for my fat thumb. But I have seen that 'brining' line so many times, I suspect you may be cutting and pasting some old thing you wrote a long time ago that has been debunked numerous times by posters here.

No I simply misspell it there is a couple words I do that with.

So are you talking about debunking my spelling or an opportunity to attack the difference we have in understanding and writing ? The Bible informs us there must be heresies as differences of opinion. Seeing the kingdom of God does not come by observation.

Just what is it that you have debunked seeing no man is above not be corrected. . . . . . brining ?

 

[garee]

You left out the part where he says to be zealous for the edification of the church and says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Then he makes another argument about prayer. If he prays in tongues, he is edified, but the other is not. He will pray in tongues. He will pray in the understanding. But if you pray in the church you do not edifiy others. Paul spoke in tongues more than them all, but if he were in the church, he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue. He requires later in the chapter that when they come together 'let all things be done unto edifying.' Paul is not opposed to praying in tongues. He is saying that in the church, all things must be done unto edifying. After saying this, he gives instructions that require tongues to be interpreted, some guidelines for prophets that also require a speaking prophet to hold his peace if another sitting by receives a revelation for ye may all prophesy one by one.

Paul is not opposed to speaking in tongues. He says 'forbid not to speak in tongues.' Speaking in tongues does not edify others without interpretation. In the church, all things are to be done unto edifying. Therefore, if one is speaking in tongues and there be no interpreter, he is to keep silent in the church and to speak to himself and to God.

The part where he says to be zealous for the edification of the church and says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret ?

You said something was left out. I would ask Left out what..?. That he might interpret what the other fellow is saying as in having a conversation called the gospel of our faith, from a faith that comes from hearing God to the faith that works in the person to both will and do His good pleasure .Having that as a imputed righteousness. I would think the righteousness of Christ?

He already know what he is saying as prophecy the unseen gift that mutually works in two . The hearer of prophecy and the speaker who prophesies, comforted together as a work of the Holy Spirit.

Note... Paul in...…... bold black .The one Paul is bringing the gospel to .........bold purple

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.1 Corinthians14 :11

When God not seen speaks words he speaks words of understanding with meanings assigned to them..... not subject to change.

He is our faithful Creator. Otherwise when by faith as a work he declared "let the be light" and there was no understanding between what he had faith in and what did appear, darkness came.

God saw the light and gave it his seal of approval calling it good, each day it is good . Only God not seen is good.

 

[CS1]

Hebrews 10:24-25 King James Version (KJV)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.. People have different interpretations of scriptures, it is good to come together even for this purpose. Not all churches just preach, there are

Praying in the spirit is when your prayer is under the anointing of the holy spirit but I do not believe someone can pray in tongue and not understand what he/She is saying, that would be total confusion. One can pray in the spirit with known tongue, just that your prayer is under the leading of the Holy spirit

thank you, but I did not ask you .

 

[Waggles]

Complete rubbish

Not according to God who both declares it through his word and through his prophets.

 

[SpoonJuly]

what is praying in the Spirit?

When some one states that I am not filled with the Holy Spirit because I do not speak in tongues, that person is a liar.
Every born again believer is filled with the Holy Spirit the instant he is saved.

 

[Waggles]

Every born again believer is filled with the Holy Spirit the instant he is saved.

Not according to scripture.

 

[Waggles]

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:

 

[SpoonJuly]

Not according to scripture.

Not according to your private interpretation of Scripture.
You have a habit of trying to make Scripture support your false beliefs.

 

[SpoonJuly]

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:

Yep---
Fits you perfectly.

 

[SpoonJuly]

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:

What we have here is a person who believes he is more holy that the rest of us and looks down his nose at those who do not "speak in tongues" .

 

[Wansvic]

I was saved in July 1962. Was Baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment I was saved. The Holy Spirit has been present with me every moment sense that day.
I have never spoken in tongues. Have never had a desire to. Have never needed to. Have never seen the purpose.
I have never missed any blessing.

"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:2-6

 

[SpoonJuly]

"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:2-6

I assume by your post that you "speak in tongues".
Since I do not, does that make me less holy than you? Not as close to God? Less of a Christian?
Since I pray in English, not "tongues", does that make my prayers less than yours?

 

[CS1]

When some one states that I am not filled with the Holy Spirit because I do not speak in tongues, that person is a liar.
Every born again believer is filled with the Holy Spirit the instant he is saved.

that was not my question nor did I do that.

 

[cv5]

I do not believe people should assemble so that a self appointed preacher/evangelist can pass down to them their version of understanding. They are not 1st hand witnesses to the gospel and this brings me to my next point which i was trying to avoid because you'll still find it extreme.

Q1. Why must a prophet die in 'Jerusalem' (Luke 13:33)? Why must a prophet die at all?
Q2. Why was it a must for Jesus to go first before the spirit would come (John 16:7)?

The things you have said above are true but only true for the apostles and the 1st century church whose mandate was to spread the gospel to all nations which they did successfully.

My point is, the words of Jesus are spirit:

John 6:62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.64 However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

And the only way the spirit is transferred from the speaker to the hearer is when the speaker dies (release His spirit/give up His ghost) having delivered the words to the hearer, the spirit then lives on through the spoken words which are now with the hearer who believed. This is what is called baptism and for that reason, a messenger/prophet must die in Jerusalem (Jerusalem simply means believers).

Jesus said He had so much to tell them (Disciples) but they could not bear at that moment so the spirit of truth would guide them to understand God's word (gospel) so that they could in the same manner deliver it to the church by also dying for the gospel.
This is something they (Apostles) knew very well and so many times Paul confirmed that he is being offered as a drink sacrifice for the sake of the gospel. Peter also said the same thing- so they knew very well they had to die for the gospel to be effective.

The reason Paul says:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

This is what Jesus told some of His disciples:

Mark 10:37 They answered, “Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory.” 38“You do not know what you are asking,”Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” 39“We can,” the brothers answered. “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

So, the people appointed to spread the gospel were to die for the gospel to be effective, how then can a preacher in the 21st century purport to preach the gospel if they can not die for it? The spirit of Christ is already here with us and the words of Christ with us (this was not the case in the 1st century), so we only need to read the bible and believe the words of Christ. The church today was supposed to guide people to the scriptures and not to purport to give meaning to give meaning to the scriptures.

Is your other point that witnesses and proclaimers of the gospel MUST die for the necessary efficacy to be activated? Not too sure what you mean.

 

[Wansvic]

I assume by your post that you "speak in tongues".
Since I do not, does that make me less holy than you? Not as close to God? Less of a Christian?
Since I pray in English, not "tongues", does that make my prayers less than yours?

It was not my intention to cause upset. I shared the scripture out of love. Paul's words show that the Holy Ghost is not immediately received when one believes. And because the Word says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17) I thought it to be helpful

 

[presidente]

Love is the greatest virtue that Paul wanted them to have. Chapter 13 is about love and chapter 14 starts the whole argument about tongues on the basis of love. Love is always about others and never self, so the idea of self edification in Corinth was what was wrong with them that Paul wrote to correct.
How then do you pick a wrong and apply it to yourself in the name of self edification?

It was already said the gifts were for the common good and never self good. So the whole argument about tongues is that it should be understandable, either by interpretation or speaking intelligible words straight away- both are not happening today so we can dismiss current phenomenon as fake but there are other many many reasons to do so.

Again, the actual details of I Corinthians 14 do not support your contention here. Gifts are given for the common good. But if an individual edifies himself in prayer, it does work for the common good if he is stronger in the Lord, more encouraged, and able to minister to others. Paul said he would pray with the spirit and with the understanding. So it is not a bad thing.

Jude also says to edify yourself in the most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. If you are alone praying in a closet somewhere, is that forbidden if you actually edify yourself by doing so? Is it a sin to read the Bible to edify yourself? David strengthened himself in the Lord. That is not wrong.

In the assembly, though, we are to seek to edify the whole assembly.

You are stetching what Paul said to such an extent that you contradict other parts of the book.

 

[presidente]

Noose,

Paul carried around in his body the death of Christ while he was alive. It doesn't say his ghost went into the other saints after he died. Jesus also said to take up the cross and follow Him. I see this sort of language as talking about Jesus words that apply to anyone who comes after Him taking up the cross and following him. Paul said, "I die daily.' Again, he was doing that in his mortal body. It doesn't say his ghost empowered the believers after he died. Is what you believe something like transmigration of the soul, or the spirit getting split up and shared among people?

Honestly, you have some very strange notions that you share when you read the Bible, rejecting the resurrection, basically rejecting the church, and these ideas about spirits. I think you might benefit from learning from other believers instead of just thinking that you and the Bible are all you need.

 

[presidente]

The part where he says to be zealous for the edification of the church and says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret ?

You said something was left out. I would ask Left out what..?. That he might interpret what the other fellow is saying as in having a conversation called the gospel of our faith, from a faith that comes from hearing God to the faith that works in the person to both will and do His good pleasure .Having that as a imputed righteousness. I would think the righteousness of Christ?

He already know what he is saying as prophecy the unseen gift that mutually works in two . The hearer of prophecy and the speaker who prophesies, comforted together as a work of the Holy Spirit.

Note... Paul in...…... bold black .The one Paul is bringing the gospel to .........bold purple

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.1 Corinthians14 :11

When God not seen speaks words he speaks words of understanding with meanings assigned to them..... not subject to change.

He is our faithful Creator. Otherwise when by faith as a work he declared "let the be light" and there was no understanding between what he had faith in and what did appear, darkness came.

God saw the light and gave it his seal of approval calling it good, each day it is good . Only God not seen is good.

I do not know what point exactly you are trying to get from I Corinthians 14:11 or how you thin it ties in to your other comments.

But in Paul's argument, it makes sense. Barbarians are foreigners. It is believed that a barbarian was someone who said 'bar bar bar' instead of speaking Greek--that it was a word to describe speakers of unknown languages.

If you speak to a foreigner who speaks a foreign language, you do not understand each other. Paul is describing the Corinthians speaking in tongues by comparing them to speaking in other languages naturally.

 

[notuptome]

In KJV English we seethe same thing. The. Verse does not say they will speak with new hearts.

The heart of flesh passage is true, too. But this passage mentions new tongues in the context of laying hands on the sick and they shall recover and other supernatural acts. A few weeks later at Pentecost there was speaking in tongues. Paul includes healing, tongues miracles wtc.

It see.s you are grasping at straws to make the cgurch less miraculous.

No, it's you who are reading into the text not reading out of the text.

You are doing the same thing to the texts in Corinthians. You infer that what Paul is writing about in Corinthians are the same events that occurred in Acts. All the while you cannot draw any connection between what happens when Pentecostals speak in tongues is the same speaking that is found in the bible.

You are creating doctrine to support behavior not shaping behavior according to biblical doctrine. No grasping at straws just demanding biblical support.

For the cause of Christ
Roger